Bryan Caplan relates the following thought experiment
Suppose there are ten people on a desert island. One, named Able Abel, is extremely able. With a hard day’s work, Able can produce enough to feed all ten people on the island. Eight islanders are marginally able. With a hard day’s work, each can produce enough to feed one person. The last person, Hapless Harry, is extremely unable. Harry can’t produce any food at all.
Questions:1. Do the bottom nine have a right to tax Abel’s surplus to support Harry?
2. Suppose Abel only produces enough food to support himself, and relaxes the rest of the day. Do the bottom nine have a right to force Abel to work more to support Harry?
3. Do the bottom nine have a right to tax Abel’s surplus to raise everyone‘s standard of living above subsistence?
4. Suppose Abel only produces enough food to support himself, and relaxes the rest of the day. Do the bottom nine have a right to force Abel to work more to raise everyone‘s standard of living above subsistence?
How would most people answer these questions? It’s hard to say. It’s easy to feel sorry for the bottom nine. But #1 and #3 arguably turn Abel into a slave. And #2 and #4 clearly turn Abel into a slave. I suspect that plenty of non-libertarians would share these libertarian moral intuitions. At minimum, many would be conflicted.
One of the reasons I brought up slavery in my earlier posts on secular morality is that slavery presents a particularly tricky moral problem.
Modern folks have extremely strong moral intuitions against slavery. Yet, an absolute injunction against slavery in the most abstract sense runs head long against huge numbers of other intuitions that folks have about society.
Usually this problem is addressed by some degree of contortionism; suggesting that chattel slavery of the type practiced in antebellum South stands apart from say taxation or compulsory education or the requirement that people wear shirts and shoes in the grocery store.
Yet, the justification for this distinction typically rest on what sound like consequentialist grounds. For example, “Come on, you can’t really tell me that forcing someone to put on shirt before entering a store is the same thing as forcing them to work the cotton fields or be whipped.”
But note that now the implication is that chattel slavery is not bad because it is slavery. It is bad because something about it – presumably the human suffering involved – is fundamentally different than having to put on shirt.
What makes this issue even thornier is the fact that there was a time when slavery was commonplace. So, what makes us think that our dogmatic rejection of slavery is somehow more sound than the its acceptance in years past?
Now, you might say that you don’t really care. This is your moral intuition and you are sticking to it. However, are you bothered at all by the possibility that you could be in the position of the slave owner, holding on to this dogmatic belief all the while committing horrible wrongs?
What if taxation, for example, really is horrible but you just don’t see it?
So these are the concerns raised by a philosophy of “be excellent to one another” or “as long as I am a pluralist why do I have to be bothered to justify my beliefs.”
NOTE: Having to wear shirts in the grocery store is the law in many places not simply a stipulation of the owner of the store. It is a result of the coercive force of the state.
NOTE on NOTE: Apparently that it is the law is a myth. So, I would have to redo this example with another compulsive triviality.

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Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 8:10 am
dieswaytoofast
Doesn’t the law of large-numbers have a wee bit to do with this?
Repeat the experiment, but with a 100 people? A 100,000? 100,000,000?
At what point are there enough Abel’s working that if *this* Abel decides to Relax, it doesn’t matter?
The ends of the spectrum are indeed valid points, i.e., if *All* Abels relax and don’t work, then all Harrys die. If *All* Abels are forced to work, then it is your conundrum.
But there is the entire spectrum in between, where the conundrum is – partially – solved, and the taxation system makes sense…
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:26 am
curtd59
Not really a criticism, but the problem with your argument is that taxes launder causal relations by pooling into aggregates. So no one knows if they CAN relax, or how many are relaxing, or what the long term impact of people relaxing is. I mean, look at Greece, southern italy and Spain. Relaxation is an art form. Credit created the illusion. Germans resented it. And now the entire capital structure is problematic and they’re going to lose a generation or more — because information was not visible due to distortions from credit on one end and taxes on another.
Money and prices are information systems. We need them.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 8:23 am
Joseph
One of the issues here is access to resources. If Abel can support himself in luxury because he monopolizes a key resource that leads to another moral intuition. In the same sense, this assumes that productivity is constant and that Harry isn’t temporarily injured. What if next week it is Abel who is injured?
These thought experiments are good at developing intuitions but often fail to reflect the complexity of real world situations (which limits the ability to use them to really explore real world situations).
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 9:07 am
Stones Cry Out - If they keep silent… » Things Heard: e219v2
[...] What if not food, then grades? [...]
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 9:18 am
stucchio
I’m confused by your example of wearing a shirt to the grocery store. Don’t the signs usually say “no shirt, no shoes, no service”?
The simple resolution is that it would be wrong to force you to wear a shirt and shoes, so I won’t force you to do anything. I’ll just tell you not to shop at my store.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:19 am
teageegeepea
Seconded. It was a very strange statement on Karl’s part. The more obvious example of accepted slavery is conscription.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 9:57 am
curtd59
HOW ABOUT WE FINISH THE PARABLE?
If Able needs to wear a shirt to get into a store, that’s an exchange. Cause and effect. It is a cost of entry.
If Able needs to respect property rights to participate in the local market. That is a price of entry into the market. If Able needs to respect manners, ethics and morals, then that is a price of entry into the group that cooperates — even if their only cooperation is negative: to respect life and property by avoiding theft, fraud and violence. If able wants something that he canot produce, he must exchange something for it.
These are all voluntary exchanges.
If Able works harder than others, and they take from him, that’s involuntary taking. It’s a theft. If Able works harder than others and others exchange something with him for it, It’s not a theft. It’s voluntary exchange. If others are materially unproductive, and have nothing to trade with Able, then what else do they have?
They have status. Status signals increase Able’s opportunity to be even more productive by assisting him in concentrating human capital. With that human capital he can exercise his mind, his abilities and his knowledge further. He can eventually control 80% of the resources simply because he knows best how. And others have voluntarily given that control to him.
Status also improves his access to desirable mates. Desirable mates further increase his status. And with that status people who are not productive like Able, will attempt to imitate him. Since, that is the purpose of status in our evolutionary system: to inform others who to imitate.
Status is our natural compensation. Status has been our compensation since before we had money, and a division of knowledge and labor. Very likely before we had speech. Perhaps before we were sentient.
But wait. Now, what happens in the Parable of the island?
Instead, one of the other nine people specializes not in being productive, but in preaching. In preaching redistribution. His name is Cain. Cain makes the argument that it is a moral duty to support the less productive people. Cain offers Job and Lot jobs if they forcibly take from Able in order to fulfill the moral demands of the non productive that Cain has been preaching. Cain then redistributes half of what he takes from Able, and demonizes Able for his reticence.
Able is deprived of the status, the future productivity he could create with control of his assets, his influence on the others in making them more productive through imitation, and deprived of the mates he could enjoy. And his genetic legacy is even deprived of the better genes he might capture.
Not only is he deprived of these things, but Cain has now stolen that status. Job and Lot have stolen his productivity, and status. This has all been involuntarily transferred (stolen) from Able, in order to profit Cain, for the benefit largely of Job and Lot, and for some symbolic benefit of everyone else.
On the horizon are nine other islands. Eight of those islands succumb to the proces of involuntary transfers. One does not. On that one Island Erik is ten times as productive as all the others, and they herald Erik at the quarterly festivals. Erik organizes the other people on his island in exchange for the product of his efforts. Over time, the people on Erik’s island become increasingly more productive, and genetically more competitive. On the other islands, the opposite happens. Because it’s dysgenic.
Humans object to involuntary transfers and are highly agitated by them. If the taxes are used for purposes that the productive agree with, then this objection usually disappears. But status is the human currency and money and ‘objects’ are just means of obtaining it. Because in the end, we are just gene factories algorithmically searching by trial and error for better solutions than those we have today. And we cannot alter that behavior. We will simply create black markets.
This is the insight of the Propertarians. That human nature is little more than emotions attached to changes in property.
On another much bigger island, the Crusoe tribe develops respect for property, but then, afterward Kevin discovers a hoard of coal that can be used for cooking fires on his property. And simply sells buckets of it at high prices to everyone on the island. The Friday tribe wants it very badly and so the Crusoe tribe must defend it. Furthermore, the Crusoe tribe already pays the cost of respecting property by forgoing opportunities for theft fraud and violence. These are a high cost for any society to develop. So, since they pay to defend the territory, and pay for property rights, they see his high prices as an involuntary transfer. The locals object because the resource is part of the island, the product of Kevin’s labors. They are comfortable paying a high price for his labor, but not for the resource, in which by any and all accounts they are shareholders. He’s not actually adding anything of value. He’s just created a toll booth, and an expensive tool booth, in order to gain access to a precious resource. He’s no different from an extortionist.
This parable can be extended to answer all moral and ethical questions of politics. The reason for that explanatory power, is that human nature is propertarian in origin. We are property calculators, and our emotions reflect changes in the state of our perceived property. THe primary difference between individuals is just which property we categorize as shareholder, and what we see as individual. But emotions are descriptions in changes in state of individuals’ perceptions of property. We could not have evolved as sentient beings otherwise. It would be impossible.
The change in politics over the past century and a half, has been driven largely by the inclusion of women into the work force and the voting system. They have expanded government. They have done so by using the government not to resolve conflicts in priorities, and not to concentrate productive capital, but to redistribute from the productive to the non productive using the artificie of government. The classical liberal model of institutions was designed for farmers heading nuclear families: business owners who participated in the market. But very few people actually participate in the market as business owners today. Most sell effort or skill for wages, or join bureaucracies to seek rents rather than participate in the market and its risk. And the productive class who participates in that market cannot defend itself from the unproductive classes using the institutional model built for egalitarian farmers. So the society polarizes as the factions compete over futures that are diametrically opposed to one another: one which appropriates money without status compensation, and one wich desires status compensation, and control over norms, in exchange for money.
Mediterranean, Russian and Slavic men have abandoned their societies because of endemic corruption. i.e., because of Involuntary transfers. The black market won and the society is not impossible to fix. Status signals in southern italy, spain and greed are anti-social. In ireland they’re anti-productive Luddic signals. In the states, vast numbers of hispanic and african american males have developed alternative masculine signals outside of the market and outside of the nuclear family. These signals are spreading to other males who are disenfranchised. Males over 50 are dropping out of the work force (and not voting over 50 and under 34) out of hopelessness. The wealthy abandoned society in the sixties, and have been out of sight since then. We do not even know their names. Many people do not know that they even exist. Their status has been totally appropriated. And they are only members of society in sense that they reside here.
You can redistribute money, but not status. Status, not money is our motivator. Society is constructed of a web of signals. otherwise it’s just a mechanical process that we each exploit for our individual benefit.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 3:00 pm
Gepap
Human attachments are to other humans, not property. Humans are social apes, always have been. We do not gather in groups “volunarily” any more than wilderbeasts or geese do.
Property as you understand it has no place in the first 200,000 years of human existance, and had no place with our predecessor species AT ALL. Trying to imagine that a concept born of the agricultural revolution is somehow inate to humanity is the great and fundamental failing of the properterians, their great original sin.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 3:21 pm
curtd59
We do not gather in groups voluntarily? Did you really write that?
We don’t form voluntary organizations? We don’t move around the country for mates and create new families?
Property is universal to man and demonstrably present in all animals that posses any form of memory, and extends from their young, to their kills, to their mates, to their tools depending upon their abilities.
Community property varies in definition from society to society. But all societies possess property. It is impossible not to.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 3:33 pm
Gepap
Re: Curt (since this annoying comment system doesn’t allow replies to replies)
You did not chose the vagina you came out of – you did not chose either your parents nor your nationality. You need permission from others to change nationality, or your legal name (another part of your identity you did not chose). Can people volunteer to form other groups later in life? Yes. But you are born into a group from the start, period. your family was responsible for not only your birth, but the fact you lived longer than a few hours. You had no choice, nor any agency, in that.
You also have a very strange concept of property. If by property all you mean is having pysical control of an object for any period of time, then yes, all life “has property” – a bacterium will absorb some particle of matter to form necessary chemicals, so forth. This is your own idosyncratic definition though, and as such, worthless for debate, because for a definition to be useful, all parties must agree to it. if that idosuncratic definition is the one you insist in using, this discussion is over because I have no interest in having to use such a curious and I would state incorrect, definition.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 3:58 pm
curtd59
RE: COmment system: Yes, it’s frustrating. I agree.
RE: Choice
Humans have chosen tribal membership, created new tribes, and forcibly included or excluded people for all of known history. Existence is not a choice. But action is. And our genetic history suggests quite clearly that we choose all sorts of groups.
RE: Property. Well, I might have a pretty thorough understanding of the history of property, propertarian reasoning, and how property is allocated in different cultures, and the metaphysical assumptions that different societies base these allocations upon. If that means limiting the discussion of absolute truths to a particular normative description of property then the very nature of your argument is illogical. Property is either a thing people demonstrate by their actions, a norm that is adopted which we argue the benefits and weaknesses of, or an artificial concept for the purpose of conveying an idea. I just can’t tell yet which way you’re using it.
RE: I”m perfectly happy to go back and forth with you but I”m pretty sure your posturing is cover for lack of understanding. If it’s just that you’re testing your opponent, then that’s an acceptable standard in internet debate that cuts down on wasted time. But you won’t find me holding onto ideas for the sake of ideology. Either I can hold an argument from first principles, or I cant. And in general I can. So I’m perfectly happy to work on this problem with you and to try to learn something from it. But that’s all that’s going on here.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Gepap
Re: curt
No one alone choses to create a new tribe – one person isn’t a tribe. yes, groups come and go, as individuals come and go. The issue is not whether change happens, but the balance between individual and collective action. Forming a new tribe is a collective action, not an individual one.
Regarding property – I have no idea of the veracity of your self-assessment regarding your knowledge, nor do I care. The issue I brought up is that a common language functions only if both parties agree to a large degree on the concept that a word encompasses. With regards to the dicussion of this parable, the idea of property as merely describing the actual physical control of an object is not particularly helpful. Does this Abel Able always have physical control over the fruits of his labor? If he has grown all this wonderful food and its sitting in a pile and Hapless Harry comes and takes some of it, was that theft? if “property” here assumes merely physical control, no. If you are extending the “right” of Able to control where the fruits of his labor end up, then you have changed what property means, and brought it closer to the more commonly used definition. A bird will defend his nest, but to say that the bird has a RIGHT to the nest is a fundamentally different issue. The parable presumes that Abel has a right to control his product, even if that fruit is doing nothing more than rotting – (no statement was made that Abel is suddely consuming ten times normal).
As for your assessment of me abilities, I also don’t care. As brought up actions, that the proof is in the pudding. It is my belief that you made several statements that are not defensible. Your statement that our emotions are driven by properterian calculus is nothing but a bold faced assertion, with no evidence for that assertion included. I thinks this bold assertion is nonsense. if you care to bother to provide a justification for your claim, that is great, but as of yet I haven’t seen it. And until you provide additional evidence, no one is uner any sort of obligation to take your statements or ideas as givens, or true.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:04 am
Jimmy
This parable is in no way comparable to a modern economy. You abstract away many of the factors (institutional support, access education, conditions of upbringing, etc.) that underlie an important chunk of the differences in productivity amongst members of a given society and amongst states.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:06 am
curtd59
@stuccoio
RE: “The simple resolution is that it would be wrong to force you to wear a shirt and shoes, so I won’t force you to do anything. I’ll just tell you not to shop at my store.”
Exactly.
Now, Karl’s argument is that some people have nothing to trade. And the rebuttal to that argument would be that they have nothing to trade, because they spend their time doing things that they prefer MORE than doing the things that would give them something to trade.
The more obvious argument is why do we subsidize the birth rates and lifestyles of the unproductive underclasses at the cost of the productive middle classes? It’s a degenerative process.
Understand that Karl is trying to find a way to justify redistribution. There is an argument. But that argument depends upon voluntary exchange not involuntary transfer. But he’s going to try everything possible to avoid coming to that very obvious and necessary conclusion.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:23 am
curtd59
@Jimmy,
Bryan is using the Crusoe argument as a thought experiment. Karl is operating within that same framework. it is a well understood tool for ethical problem solving. You’re right that it’s reductio, but not right in thinking that the thought experiment cannot accomodate complex benefits, or scale accordingly. It can. It’s the basic framework for discussing libertarian ideas.
Karl knows what he is doing.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:41 am
Marcus
“It’s the basic framework for discussing libertarian ideas.”
Which, I would argue, is why libertarian ideas/beliefs aren’t held more widely. Morality isn’t physics, which is, I think, whatKarl is getting at.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:53 am
curtd59
Well, philosophy is the discipline of constructing arguments. It’s rationalistic by nature.
And quite contrary to your statement, and Karl’s, morality is quite simple. It’s heavily loaded with claims on others. Emotions are reactions to changes in state of property, where property is broadly defined as that which we act to accumulate.
The difference here is not moral. It’s a difference in reproductive strategies. The question is only, whether, under redistribution, one has the right to bear children one cannot afford. That is the underlying question.
Personally, I don’t think it’s possible to make the argument that we have a right of reproduction under redistribution on any solid ground. I don’t think free immigration is compatible with redistribution either. That doesn’t mean we can’t do it. But it doesn’t mean it’s moral. It’s just a preference. And I don’t think anyone lives today who can make an argument otherwise.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:36 am
BSEconomist
The problem here is that we know full well the solution to this parable in the real world and we ought not to think that hard to understand. No, almost nobody not already infected with libertarian/objectivist thinking would have any problems forcing Abel to help Harry. Nobody. I’ll go further and say that half the problem is a framing device which by now anyone who considers themselves honest thinkers should have built some resistence to. Calling the least able person “hapless” involves (a priori) a moral injunction against him.
What do I mean? Well, what if Harry is “hapless” because he is injured or maimed or, say, autistic? What would people decide then? Obviously, society would shun any who have the resources to help but refuse to do so. Abel would be a pariah. Either Abel would have to “buy off” the others to stay in their company, or he would have to support Harry himself. This is how real people behave.
You can call this slavery if you want, but its a really strange notion when you come to it (as Karl suggests, this is why slavery is difficult from a metaethical perspective, but I want to duck philosophical arguments as much as I can). The issue here is that Abel has the “right” to be lazy and feed only himself, but the group also has the “right” to define the “price” of admission into the in-group. This price is what we would refer to as a “tax” and if Abel wants to be part of society he’d better pay it. As the Greeks understood, we are all “slaves” to the law (a point that DeLong has brought up on numerous occasions).
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:13 am
curtd59
Straw man. The question is not whether we provide limited care to those who have encountered accidents, but whether we provide equality of conditions to those who simply prefer not to put their limited skills to work for the benefit of others. The first has universal support. The latter does not.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 12:50 pm
BSEconomist
Not a straw man. The point is not contingent on any way on the characteristics of Harry. The point, instead, is a property of the group. In short the group has every right to demand whatever price it deems appropriate for admission into the in-group. You can call that coercion and slavery if you want, but it’s not something that the vast majority of non-true-believers would understand as such. Abel, after all, can choose to exit from the in-group if he so desires (in my formulation).
In fact, some might recognize this problem I have set up as an example of voluntary exchange. One might even call it a contract. A “social contract” so to speak. And as with any other contracting problem, the agent is not presumed to have every option they would ideally like presented; it’s a problem of accept/reject for Abel–and reject means exit from the in-group (i.e. Abel would be a pariah).
You are trying to put a moral law onto the in-group behavior by treating it as if Abel has no choice, which neatly avoids his accept/reject decision. This is an attempt to reframe the problem and confuse your target audience; at least as long as Abel really is given the option to exit. If not, than most would recognize the relationship as slavery (i.e. if the in-group started whipping Abel so that he works for their benefit, than you would be correct).
Let me put it in explicitly Libertarian ideas: where does Abel get property rights over his in-group position?
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 1:50 pm
curtd59
RE: “Abel, after all, can choose to exit from the in-group if he so desires (in my formulation).”
That’s the whole point now, isn’t it? But he can’t. Choose to exit a totalitarian government that makes claims upon him.
How do you define that group? That’s the problem of politics, isn’t it?
If one group wants to make its own group and another wants claims against them, who arbitrarily establishes the membership of the group?
Isn’t that the entire problem? A slave is a forced-member of a group and their claims against him. You want to enslave a group. The other group wants to be left alone and free from enslavement.
Your only means of constructing an argument would have to rely upon some involuntary transfer taking place. But that’s not what you’re arguing for. You’re establishing an arbitrary claim on the products of others and your doing it by including them in a group involuntarily – slavery. You’re creating an arbitrary definition in order to justify your conclusion.
If it isn’t obvious, america consists of groups who demonstrably do not want to be with, or to cooperate with each other, and which the state forces into redistribution in order to perpetuate itself.
Libertarianism is usually defined in positive terms (property rights) or in moral terms (freedom from coercion) but these are contrivances. Libertarianism across the spectrum, when all examples are enumerated, describes the freedom from involuntary transfers. More importantly, the freedom from profiteering by involuntary transfers.
The difference between the bleeding hearts, the classical liberals, and the rothbardians, is largely defined by which institutions are needed to prevent involuntary transfers, and which secondary effects (externalities) constitute involuntary transfers.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 3:03 pm
BSEconomist
That is not the claim being made. If you are right than every government is totalitarian. They are not. The nature of the social compact matters.
I don’t need to define the in-group, the in-group defines itself, it is whatever group Abel wishes to be a part of it need not be a centralized structure–its rules are set by the rules of cooperative game theory. But it includes “governments” as one manifestation. It makes decisions through politics of one sort or another. Politics matters in all areas of real world human interaction–look around.
Politics matters, but you don’t get to choose the political system that you want any more than you get to choose the price you pay for a new car. That’s the difference, I”m sorry but its not subtle yet you keep trying to blur the distinction. All of your case is based on a very standard Libertarian argument; I am quite familiar with that argument, thanks. Now, try to understand what I am saying.
Exit is key to all of this–exit or the accept/reject decision. Not every government is totalitarian, but your argument suggests that they are–this would be reductio ad absudum for most people, but many Libertarians seem to take the argument at face value and conclude that yes governments are all totalitarian.
In the parable there is no such presumption. The question is about the morality of “forcing” Abel to do this or that–the possibility of exit is entirely absent– which leaves unsaid the extent and nature of the in-group’s means of enforcing cooperation (libertarians like to call this coercion). Can the in-group only whip Abel? Of course not, so why are other options missing?
The answer is that your case breaks down entirely if the means of enforcing cooperation are explicitly spelled out. Groups exist because groups have advantages, but groups (unlike individuals) need to solve the problem of free-riding. This is a clear case of exchange, but there is a form of moral hazard involved which means that the group cannot allow just anyone to join without conditions.
It is possible that the group is OK with letting Harry starve. It is possible that the preferred social structure is an extreme form of individual autarky (in which no one tries to make anyone do anything they don’t want to do–though people would be much poorer and lonlier in such a world). The problem is that neither of these are the world we live in–groups are more cohesive and more protective of individual members as you look at smaller social units. Where I come from that’s called revealed preference.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 4:11 pm
curtd59
(Argh. This is going to require some work.)
1) Every government is totalitarian? No, but the modern corporal state is by definition totalitarian, by that definition, yes. The only test is right of secession. If it doesn’t exist, then it’s totalitarian. That’s slavery. Right?
2) In the next paragraph your argument becomes circular and I think pointless. EIther one can exit the group or not. I don’t see the point your trying to make other than to find some vague argument to majority rule.
3) “Most people”. So what on earth makes ‘most people’ a judge of anything other than what ‘most people’ survey. That’s a meaningless statement.Most people would enslave Able. Does that make it ‘good?” Most people believe in divine intervention too, and last I checked a good number of them thought the earth was flat. In addition, norms are not truths. THe question we are asking here is not one of norms, but one of truths. How can we justify any form of government as something other than a function of taste? Because as a function of taste, it cannot be given greater priority than any other taste.
4) “Libertarians” – libertarians are attempting to define the next generation of government. The anarcho capitalist program is a research program. There is an ideological contingent that I’m sure you’re reacting to. But the research program is an attempt to find a way to develop a government that is not totalitarian, in response to the failure of the Classical Liberal model to preserve freedom because it did not anticipate the fall of the church, the rise of marxism, or the inclusion of women in the voting pool, and the subsequent abandonment of freedom as a normative value. The question here after all, is under what criteria is Able a slave?
We all bring our heritage to the philosophical table. Rothbard was Jewish so used the model of a normative religion. Hoppe is German and used a voluntary private state. I’m anglo american I use an imperial model that depends upon formal institutions and does NOT rely upon a universal set of norms.. But these programs all rely on property rights and voluntary transfer rather than majority rule. Majority rule is by definition oppressive. Libertarian government by voluntary exchange cannot be oppressive in the positive sense. it can only constrain people from theft fraud and violence – ie: constrain negatives.
5) it is possible that a group prefers to afford harry an equal life style to their own. and that group should be able to do so, as long as other group members are not force to do so.
Cheers
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 5:25 pm
scott f
” who simply prefer not to put their limited skills to work for the benefit of others”
It is nowhere in the parable that Harry CHOOSES to be hapless. You have smuggled a welfare queen onto the island. Very clever!
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 10:56 am
Jonas
I cannot agree more. It is a natural human instinct to believe that one’s advantages are earned. So much mental static develops in the mind of those ‘born on third,’ as they say, in the face of arguments to their responsibilities to the unprivileged that the only relief is a vigorous defense of their great fortune. Thus, Rand. Thus, Caplan. Thus, the bought-and-paid-for talking heads (Hubbard, Mankiw, Cochrane, Barro) and the bought-off tea-people stooges. It’s all so easy when your defining characteristic is an empathy deficit.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:45 am
Lord
Morals vary with what is possible. It is all too believable that they are luxuries that would disappear in the face of hardship just as they become desirable in the face of plenty. We can hope the future only offers more plenty, but it remains only a hope.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:54 am
Lord
If it is immoral to tax Abel, it must be moral to let Harry starve. If it is immoral to let Harry starve, it must be moral to tax Abel. Libertarians prefer the first, most people prefer the latter.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:08 am
curtd59
@Lord
RE: “If it is immoral to tax Abel, it must be moral to let Harry starve.”
Straw man. The question is:
A) Whether Harry is due food, clothing and shelter (Yes), or whether he is due material equality of conditions (No)
B) Whether harry must observe norms, manners, ethics and morals in exchange for that support (Yes), or whether he can actively eschew them (No).
C) Whether harry has the right to vote despite his lack of contribution (No) or whether as a dependent he has no say in government (Yes).
D) Whether harry as the right to bear children, and therefore perpetuate his dependence to further generations (No) or whether he must alter his condition in order to perpetuate his genes (Yes)
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:27 am
Lord
The entire parable is a straw argument. What if Harry’s support requires all their efforts (No). What if Abel dies (No). Morals, like politics, are the art of the possible.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:33 am
Lord
Should Harry be made Abel’s slave (Functionally he is, but most would say no).
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:41 am
curtd59
@Lord “Art Of The Possible”
Well that translates to “what can we get away with”.
The question at hand is whether we can discover a means of making the decision that is voluntarily rational. If your argument is that that’s unnecessary and that all political discourse is just pragmatism then it’s simply more pragmatic for the strong to conquer the weak and exploit them. Because that’s possible too. In fact, it’s a tried and true method.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:54 am
Lord
Or what we can accomplish. Voluntarily rational, perhaps, but then people aren’t rational, so no. Just as it’s possible for the weak to overthrow the strong.
‘The question is not whether we provide limited care to those who have encountered accidents.’ Straw man. This is indeed the question. That libertarians refuse to see this is their blindness.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 12:11 pm
curtd59
@Lord
It has taken a few attempts to get here but what you’re saying is that you have an emotionally driven desire to provide equality of ends rather than minimal insurance against catastrophe. But you provide no argument WHY.
THe other side has plenty of arguments: Isn’t this sentiment just a difference in breeding strategies? The female wants her (small number of) offspring to have every advantage within the tribe and the male wants the tribe (his broader genetic relations) to compete against other tribes? Why should one group enjoy less gratification so that others can enjoy more? What is the material impact of this behavior on a society over time?
I mean you have this feeling. Others have different feelings. The feelings are seemingly immutable. They are testable. We can measure them. We can alther those feelings by increasing or decreasing hormones. So are these tastes? I mean the arguments either way are purely aesthetic. SO what is your basis for making this judgement other than your feelings are somehow abstractly better than the feelings of others, when we know, with some high degree of certainty that your feelings are not rational, but inherited and biochemical in origin? Where do you take your argument?
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 3:07 pm
Lord
But that isn’t what I am saying at all. I am saying that even minimal insurance against catastrophe will require taxes (as well as few other useful social constructions that would otherwise be burdened by free riders). My argument is some degree of social cohesion requires this and am willing to submit to taxes to that end.
Anyone is free to emigrate as long as they can find someone else to take them or are willing to go it alone. These so called slaves want all the privileges of membership without paying the costs, just more free riders.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 3:50 pm
curtd59
a) Define ‘social cohesion’ (you will end up defining property rights)
b) Why is it required?
c) Why are taxes and government the best way to provide services?
d) how are can such things be measured?
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Lord
Not just property rights though, human rights, sharing of social burdens, providing a productive social environment. Societies can extract these for their benefit or they can submit to others that will extract them for their own which is why libertarians aren’t keen on the alternatives. Government is the solution to the problem of libertarians (free riders). They will claim government is free riding on them but that would be a mathematical impossibility.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 6:15 pm
curtd59
Define “Human Rights” as something other than property rights.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 6:22 pm
curtd59
RE: Free Riders.
This would require an action to ‘free ride upon’
Or an absence of action to ‘free ride upon’.
But again , your argument has become circular.
The group defines who is a member, in order to extort from members.
This is slavery.
The opposite view, which is that group membership is voluntary, does not.
The alternative is to suggest that there are no vaporous ‘demands’ created out of nothing, but that groups are created not through claims and demands, but through exchanges.
The question reamins, what would Harry exchange for membership in the group of productive people since he has desires to belong in that group. Whereas the group of productive people has no desire to belong in the group (corporation, community) of unproductive people.
The last is to say that the group of unproductive people will not trade with the group of productive people unless they get a discount. This too is an exchange. But in the example we are considering, we are talking not about exports but about personal consumption.
Thursday ~ May 3rd, 2012 at 12:22 am
Lord
Your argument has become circular. You want to be a member of group but without any obligations to the group, to voluntarily join but to dictate to others the terms upon which they must accept your joining, to leave the group but not be excluded from it or by it, to have all the benefits of it and none of the obligations, to which I say, you are free to form your own group and invite all who accept your terms to join. Yes, you will have to do it elsewhere and you may have problems getting anyone to join but that is your problem. You may not be able to afford it, but that is your problem. If someone else objects to your rules and seek to impose their own, well that is your problem too. If another group does not want to trade with you, that is also your problem. If another group is willing to trade with you but only on their terms, they are no different from you so you have no basis to object. If you are a slave it is because you cannot afford to be free or are unwilling to pay the price. Just stop the whining.
Thursday ~ May 3rd, 2012 at 4:13 am
curtd59
@Lord
No, It is not a desire to belong to a group. (A statement which has no meaning unless one seeks rents against others.)
It is to prevent others from acts of rent-seeking (extortion).
It is to cooperate with others who share the same goals without being prevented from sharing with others who share the same goals.
It is true that freedom is a desire of the creative minority.
It is true the the majority desire not freedom but either rents or discounts.
There is no reason that these people must forcibly extract either discounts or rents from one another under the violence of government.
Instead government can broker agreements between them.
Democratic government ‘broke’ the european agreement which gave birth to european prosperity: which was the exchange of market participation, property rights, and enfranchisement, in exchange for conformity to aristocratic temporal norms, and conformity to christian spiritual norms — two sets of norms that made the market system possible.
SUMMARY
I was hoping to learn something. But this exercise has only confirmed the obvious.
The professors do not engage in these conversations — largely because they are eristic, but also because they are a poor use of time. They are eristic because they are either not decidable by empirical argument, or not decidable by arguments using non-contradictory necessity. Both of which can be made, but both of which impose a high cost on participants.
I find these debates help me solve a different problem: to understand the non-rational, non-empirical arguments of the opposition.
In politics, humans argue in support of sentiments that are largely biological in origin. They are not rational. They are not chosen. People hold their beliefs not because of rational conviction, but because of sentimental instinct. Instincts which they seek to justify. And without rational arguments consisting of non contradictory, necessary statements, or empirical arguments consisting of empirical evidence that backs up the claims, all arguments must of necessity result in a discussion of emotional reflection upon norms not rational enumeration of necessities.
But internet debate is a dirty business. It is a street fight. It is most often unskilled. It consists of as many taunts as it does arguments. And less than consistent logic.
And if one is patient the opponent eventually accomplishes himself, what one hopes to accomplish more directly: the exposure of his argument as a statement of preferences and selection bias, not one of noncontradictory necessity, or empirical correlation — both of which compensate for the problem of testing statements by ‘normative emotional reflection’.
But most importantly all supposedly moral arguments can be reduced to: CLAIMS FOR INVOLUNTARY TRANSFER which is the source of all POSITIVE political speech. Involuntary transfers in the positive: rent seeking, or the negative: discounts.
The purpose of politics can be to choose from the multitude of options available, those initiatives that require the concentration of scarce capital. Or it can be the process of seeking rents against, or involuntary discounts against others.
It does not have to be so. There is no reason we cannot conduct exchanges. That is, unless we actually want to have class and race warfare while seeking rents and discounts from one another.
The classical liberal libertarians have the only institutional solution, and the propertarian libertarians have the only rhetorical language for conducting such a debate. Unfortunately, for political reasons, the Rothbardians are propagating an ideological religion not an institutional solution and they cloud the argument.
But the rest of us are looking for institutional answers that allow us to have our freedom, while providing others with the benefits of the productive classes. The difference is that the libertarians want something in exchange for their productivity. And the progressives want to appropriate that productivity without compensation for it.
This concept of exchange is intolerable to progressives who hold a communal concept of man wherein each female desires to give her child the greatest access regardless of merit. Whereas, conversely, the masculine hierarchical model of conservatives finds such communalism socially and genetically destructive since it’s view of man is to create the strongest tribe over time by specifically selecting in favor of merit. (The dirty secret of the western manorial model was its long term suppression of birth rates of the lower classes — a factor which has been removed in the west as the middle and upper classes profited from selling goods and services to the newly expanded base of proletarian consumers whose consumption was made possible by the harnessing of fossile fuels.)
The libertarians suggest that each person can have what he or she desires, regardless of masculine or feminine preference but if and only if government is a means for conducting market exchanges between groups, rather than the means by which members of government profit by oppressing one or both groups by enforced discounts or rents.
An argument to preferences is null. Preferences are what they are. Exchange is the only way that preferences can be voluntarily serviced by all sides. Unfortunately, one of the preferences is to obtain what we want through rents or discounts, rather than exchange.
Progressives are simply more comfortable with theft than libertarians. It is their entire purpose. Where a libertarian’s entire purpose is productivity with which he can conduct voluntary exchanges.
SHORT DEFINITIONS:
1) Rent Seeking: “To gain wealth by increasing one’s share of currently existing wealth instead of trying to create wealth.”
2) Discounts: “To obtain something at a lower price” in this case, to use the government to artificially decrease the cost of something.
These are two sides of the same coin. Socialism in the first, Corporatism in the second. Libertarians offer an alternative: voluntary exchange.
Libertarianism is the ‘third way’.
Thursday ~ May 3rd, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Lord
Freedom in the context of property is an oxymoron. Diogenes knew freedom. The rest of us have to voluntarily pay our taxes to be free or admit our slavery to our own desires and our lack of courage of convictions. Libertarians can never be free as they prefer slavery.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 11:01 am
Jonas
“Libertarians prefer the first, most people prefer the latter.”
or,
Libertarians prefer the first, people prefer the latter.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:06 am
Max
If everyone lived alone on an island (no trade), then the living standard of each would be determined strictly by ability to produce. In a social context, though, inequality can be driven by the ability to outsmart other people rather than by the ability to produce. Relative ability, not just absolute ability matters. Does this affect the moral intuition?
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:11 am
curtd59
Competition is by definition “outsmarting”.
The purpose of outsmarting via competition is redistributive: to decrease prices or increase choices for all.
The purpose of competition and outsmarting is redistribution from the current holder of advantage to consumers in the market.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:07 am
Taxes=Slavery? « BS Economist
[...] standby that taxes are a form of theft or slavery is back on this internets, this time Karl Smith is linking to a post from Bryan Caplan. Quoting from the Smith post, here’s the argument in a [...]
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:35 am
Arthur
Look, compulsory labor is not slavery.
We accept compulsory labor in some cases, but we do not accept a specific form of compulsory labor called slavery, the reason probably has something to do with the slave being property (in modern slavery anyway) not human.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 4:48 pm
Axel
1) I agree with Arthur, compulsory work is not slavery. Slavery is not about being forced to take part into a group, but exactly the opposite. Being excluded from a group by force….
2) This assumption is very misleading about productivity and society in my opinion. I mean it’s really hard to imagine someone was born 10 times more productive than 90% of population, before any interactions with others. Our individual productivity is strongly impacted by our interactions and the way we use it (think of politicians). This means the question is highly endogenous: imagine that there is no society/cooperation without ‘tax’ on any island, and that without society Able productivity is not 10 but 1 (8 others are at 0,5) and Harry dies. Then in cooperation let’s give them the 10,1 and 0 productivity but Harry can be saved. Curt (productivity 1) would then advise Able not to cooperate, unless others make him King, God, or Kim Il Sung. Pb is God stopped working after one week. But Harry is far more productive as a King (he has the best First name and is is quite bad at work). What about the KIS option?
3) I thought in the Cain and Abel story, Cain was the industrious brother, founders of cities in the end, and Abel willing to abide by high moral standards more than ultra productive. May be you inverted names, may be it’s unrelated.
4) Curt, are you intentionnaly threatening in any way Karl’s property rights upon his blog on this one?
5) I am indeed a strawman
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 10:34 pm
curtd59
Axel,
1) There are people who are far more than 10x productive as others.
Productivity is the measure of out raw output of the same product per hour OR in economics it’s referred to as ‘efficiency’, and ‘productivity’, out of commensurable necessity, refers to the numeric profit resulting from exchange. For example, very good programmers are often 10,000 times as productive as the average programmer. A director for a movie is arguably significantly higher than that. A CEO makes an infinite amount of difference for all but fully commoditized companies. If the median salary is what 48k, then 10x is 500K. The same can be said for professional athletes. There are plenty of people who are 10x as productive as others. And there is a pretty good argument to be made, that no society can become prosperous unless 80% of the resources are in the hands of the 20% of people capable of putting them to productive use.
The rest of your reply is an irrelevant attempt at sarcastic humor. So I’ll just avoid it.
Friday ~ May 4th, 2012 at 6:02 am
Axel
The irrelevant attempt a humor was not intended to be that sarcastic.
You seem to be convinced to have understood some very important thing for humanity and want to share it with others, which I guess is fine. I’m not convinced, that’s it.
On productivity you missed my argument. A CEO is a v good example. GE CEO is largely 10x more productive than let’s say GE average worker. Now put him alone in the desert and see what his output becomes relative to the same worker. So what I point out is simply that productivity is highly dependent on social interactions/technology at hand. This is obvious.
Then, imagine you have the best CEO in place at one of the most productive and biggest company. Then he dies. You have to replace it with the second best. Etc etc… when do you see productivity collapse ?
Well my take is you get a real collapse when society is not able to educate/produce enough potential ‘bosses’. Nothing about being the One, or let’s say very little.
My point is just, productivity is not part of individuals instrinsic nature as you think. It is not a God gift. It is not magic. Grounding your whole theory on that assumptions looks mistaken to me
It can very well be that the 80/20 optimality depends on the technology of the economy instead of on an intrinsic truth about human beings (fordism led to different resource distribution than agricultural economies of middle age or even post IT bubble ones etc etc). On this aspect, don’t tell me you seriously think that the same individuals would be distinguished as the most productive whatever the society/technology (take agriculture vs your IT programmer). Not the same skills and not the same mindset to get to that skills.
So my point is just as simple as that: relative productivity strongly depends on the organization of the group and its ‘technology’. Human capital is strongly endogenous.
And in this case taxes could well be the best way to get to the optimally productive people having the power. Taxes were necessary to have kings and unified states when emerging from feodality for instance.
So to sum up, I think this short story is a sophism about productivity and society. Speaking of slavery is a rhetorical artifact to build a moral argument against taxes vs freedom.
A part from this, i’m fine with socially praising productive people. Like i’m fine with saving Harry from starvation at low cost.
Tuesday ~ May 1st, 2012 at 11:01 pm
Emma Zahn (@EmmaZahn)
Why is Abe so able? How did he acquire his knowledge and skills? All by himself? Doubtful. He is building on what human beings as a species have learned over millennia What gives him the moral right to hoard his knowledge? to render his cohabitants utterly dependent or let them die? Or risk becoming enslaved himself by their greater numbers, Randians greatest nightmare?
Best for everyone if Abe takes the others on as apprentices; teach them what he knows. They survive and he gets more leisure time to learn even more and hone skills.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 4:01 am
govt_mule
Kaplan’s argument is that taxing Able to feed Harry is “slavery” and hence immoral as a means of redistribution. Suppose the other nine agree to charge Able more in any transactions than they charge each other, and use the surplus to feed Harry. Able is under no compulsion in this case (though he might not be treated equally). Would that be a morally acceptable form of redistribution for libertarians?
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 8:41 am
Benny Lava
One might also run this thought experiment with more nuance and see what answers arise:
Suppose Abel’s farm lies along a small stream, the only source of freshwater on the island. And his farm is productive owing to its proximity to water.
The 8 intermediate farms get just enough water through ground runoff that they can produce enough to subsist.
Harry’s farm, begin the furthest from the stream, cannot produce enough to feed but one man.
Do you answers change? What if instead of produce, Able was forced to allow some of the river to be diverted, to irrigate the other farms. Is this a form of slavery?
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 3:12 pm
curtd59
The question is the ORDER in which these things occurred. If he purchased his farm given a certain rate of water flow, then no, he paid a discounted price for it already, whereas Able paid a higher price for his land. If he settled the land with the knowledge of it, again no. If Able changes the amont of water that he redirects from the river then yes.
Standard libertarian argument.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 7:28 pm
Benny Lava
Why would you assume that this is purchased land?
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 8:19 pm
curtd59
Benny
There are any number of permutations. I simply gave one example.
But for the question even to be asked requires that Able has land and harry has land, and therefore they have property of some sort. WHat is the order in which they took possession of it? No matter how many ways you try to escape the issue of precedence, the result will be the same. Did Harry take a discount which he now expects Able to pay for?
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 9:29 pm
Benny Lava
Suppose that these ten people are shipwrecked survivors on a previously uninhabited island. What sort of premium did Abel pay? What sort of discount did Harry take?
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 11:36 pm
curtd59
Benny.
Then if they are shipwrecked, how did the allocation of property arise?
Thursday ~ May 3rd, 2012 at 9:11 am
Benny Lava
Does it matter?
Thursday ~ May 3rd, 2012 at 9:18 am
curtd59
It matters. Because unless it occurs instantaneously (like a shareholder agreement) then, we cannot tell who is trying to extort from whom.
Thursday ~ May 3rd, 2012 at 7:38 pm
Benny Lava
I’m not sure what you mean.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 9:58 am
Jonas
I think that it is easy enough to argue against chattel slavery, among other abuses, using original position. This aspect of the secular morality of societal norms, especially as manifest in the law, seems curiously absent from much discussion of these matters.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Gepap
This example by Caplan might as well start with: “Imagine Superman”
Sorry, but a though experiment based on fantasy from the start is not going to provide us with any real world ideas. Of course, this kind of thinking is sadly far too common from liberterians.
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Gepap
I wonder is Caplan is against laws that mandate that parents feed their children. After all, every single newborn is a “Hapless Harry” and their parents are the Able Abels. If a mother were to refuse to redistribute their bodily fluids (milk) in order to feed that hapless harry, we today would criminally punish her if that Hapless harry starved. Does Caplan believe that this is a law that enslaves parents? And what is his belief about abortion? Cause that newly fertilized egg is most certainly another “hapless harry”, a true parasite on the mother’s body, one that can cause actual harm and even possible death. Does he believe that a woman has the right not be be enslaved by this parasite?
Wednesday ~ May 2nd, 2012 at 11:40 pm
curtd59
A parent chooses a child, or at least, acts to cause its creation. And on top of that the child is a parent’s genetic legacy – our purpose. Able does not choose for harry to exist. And does not act to create harry’s existence.
Friday ~ May 4th, 2012 at 2:36 pm
JMike
How did exactly these ten people get into exactly this universe? Why does food need to be “produced” in this universe? Why is food production the only parameter that (presumably) dictates the ten people’s lives and deaths? Why exactly am I supposed to believe that I can extrapolate from my answers to this thought experiment to anything at all resembling the real world?
I think I have a pretty strong libertarian streak, but I find oversimplified examples like this extremely frustrating.
Monday ~ May 7th, 2012 at 9:52 pm
Gulzar
The story of Able Abel does not end there. I have a possible sequel here
http://gulzar05.blogspot.in/2012/05/why-able-abel-has-to-be-taxed.html
Wednesday ~ May 23rd, 2012 at 1:02 am
Cain And Able On An Island: Justifying Redistribution? | Capitalism v3
[...] posts on Modeled Behavior in response to this post by Bryan Caplan on Econlog Suppose there are ten people on a desert [...]