So both from private correspondent and comments on my last post I can tell that people read me as asking something different than what I mean to be asking. I am going to try to be more exact, at the price of being less readable.
So, financial commentators appear to be debating the merits of additional QE. Some are saying the effects would be good. Others are saying they would be bad.
I strongly suspect that they intend to be making assertions about the world.
I do not believe that they intend to speak gibberish as one might do to an infant. For example, saying “gaga-goo-goo.”
Nor, do I believe they intend to recite memorized lines from a script, like an actor.
Yet, if they are making assertions this suggests they have in their minds some relationship, presumably causal, between QE and the rest of the world.
I want to know what that relationship is, or if there are many different ones at least a few, perhaps more common, samples.
Even if some parts of that relationship are implicitly magical or nonsensical, that’s fine. I am not trying to evaluate it. I am trying to internalize it.

29 comments
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Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 10:57 am
Terry
Perhaps they see it like I do, as a sort of fiscal belt loosening. Our pants (financial constraints) are too tight.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 11:06 am
Brito
RAAAAWWW, DESTROY WEALTH BY ILLEGAL COUNTERFEIT, CREATING PERPETUAL DEBT BLACK HOLE.
In all seriousness, interest rates have a big difference on portfolios, future discounting etc… Even a small change by a few basis points in interest rates along the yield curve would likely be enough to cause a stock market rally of some sort, I guess?
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 11:18 am
rjsigmund
zero hedge commentary suggests the Fed manipulates the market…
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 11:21 am
Brito
Zero hedge commentary suggests the fed manipulates our very life blood, as ordered by the lizard men, in order to create infinite debt and establish a soviet central planning regime.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 1:26 pm
dumdedumdum
Precious bodily fluids.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 11:28 am
Lord
Doubt it rises to a theory but there are a few constant memes. 1) QE is like lowering interest rates and they will be lowered too low for too long leading to another bubble and that is in fact its goal. 2) QE will generate inflation devaluing incomes and savings, not so much investment or wealth since the wealthy are heavily leveraged. 3) QE is a giveaway to the banks and the rich who own them, lowering their costs and increasing their profits without much being passed along to the rest of us. 4) QE is a give away to the financial sector and lowers savers returns punishing the small saver and the retired without lowering borrowing costs much or inducing much more investment. 5) QE will induce more bad investments and waste money so we are better off waiting for good ones to come along. 6) QE is political intervention for Obama’s re election the costs of which will appear afterwards.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 12:15 pm
Lord
7) QE allows government spending without restraint and will create a government debt bubble that will burst leaving us unable to pay for it and all worse off, usually argued by the same people that want to burst it now through default.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 11:30 am
Richard Williamson
I think you’d find that if you called someone up and said “Hi, I’m Karl Smith from UNC/Modeled Behavior, and I would be really keen to talk to you about your views on QE and better understand your view of the world”, some (if not most) people would talk to you. Personal view: there’s not a lot of substitutes to really understanding why someone thinks what they do other than a conversation, and I’d be fascinated to see the outcome.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 11:55 am
Karl Smith
I tried that.
It went surprisingly badly. One person wouldn’t accept my pleas of ignorance and kept trying to debate me on the point.
The other simply kept asserting that there was a conspiracy between the Fed and the Whitehouse and I didn’t know how to get them to tell me how the conspiracy operated.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 12:15 pm
Richard Williamson
One of the sources of the mystery that you mentioned was reports from investment banks. Have you tried calling the analysts?
I also recall David Merkel had a serious of posts called ‘queasing over quantitative easing’. I think there were six or seven of them.
Monday ~ April 23rd, 2012 at 10:20 am
Corey Mutter
My guess is that the analysts who view QE as a dangerous manipulation of markets are simply making negative-sounding grunts in the general direction of the Federal government. That is, the theory in operation is “any action taken by a government is bad for the economy”.
I’ve no guesses on what drives the other opinions.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 12:41 pm
JL
(1) Read Krugman.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/plutocrats-and-printing-presses/
The Finance Industry sees that QE is depressing their profits and they know that more QE will depress their profits further.
QE is a wealth transfer from the rentier class to the working class and the rentier class knows it.
So this is what Wall Street thinks.
(2) Understand politics.
The rentier class is much smaller than the working class and at the moment they aren’t exactly popular with the working class.
If they honestly say what they think then the working class will want more QE and politicians will be happy to oblige.
So the rentier class needs to find stories that convince the working class that QE is bad for the working class.
These stories will not make sense to an educated economist such as yourself, but the intent is to manipulate the working class, not to advance economic knowledge.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 2:26 pm
JL
I see you got pegobry to spill the beans.
“increased demand for treasuries lowers yields.”
Which is good for the taxpayers who ultimately pay those yields..
“And so investors must shift their portfolios to less bonds and more stocks to preserve their returns.”
But stocks aren’t backed by taxpayers. There is no guaranteed return and (even worse) no guaranteed principal!
So really, Wall Street understands QE!
But fully admitting the truth will lead to even more QE, so they must resort to deceit.
Much of which is probably honest self-deceit: humans tend to rationalize noble motives to justify their actions.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 2:20 pm
devin
I don’t know, but if you figure it out, be sure to let us know!!
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 3:28 pm
scharfy
I think the garden variety wall-streeter views the QE as debt monetization old school style. And, thinking of themselves as rugged individualists of the Teddy Roosevelt/Gordon Gekko hybrid ilk, find it morally wrong.
They do not fully understand, or want to understand that the FED monetizes and UN-monetizes on a massive scale. Print/Unprint.
They don’t understand the transmission mechanism (private credit), for now, is off. They wrongly view the QE as FISCAL POLICY gone haywire. Straight cash homey. (Arguably, though, QE is deflationary. Strips interest income out of the private sector and onto the FEDs balance)
They view the QE as ready to spend funds that are gonna drive the price of Wheaties thru the roof.
Well intentioned, sort-of. But they don’t get the architecture of the building they are evaluating.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 5:29 pm
MPLSMAN
I work for a “main st” bank in the corp treasury doing finance and measuring interest rate risk and I hear tons of opinions, not all of them valid.
The couple people who actually understand anything about monetary policy seem to think that from the point of view of the bank QE is a good thing because a stronger recovery = more loan growth = more money for us / stronger recovery etc. There are only a couple people that think this as its a pretty conservative culture and they generally have economics degrees vs MBAs/CFAs. And most comml banks are asset sensitive today and ready for rising rates.
I think there is a good chunk of people who either support or oppose QE (or are neutral on it) to a more mild degree but don’t open their mouths because they don’t really know what they are talking about. Vanilla retail/comml banking is not that complicated. They don’t need to know the specifics to do their jobs.
Then you have a solid majority of people including senior leadership who view it as all the various conservative talking points someone outlines above (wealth transfer from rich to poor; Obama penalizing the banks for causing the crisis; the most popular theory being that its the gov’t self financing its massive debt in “secret” somehow or that without Bernanke buying the govt debt up for us there would have been a Euro style debt crisis here or something ridiculous like that. At best they view it all as a pointless failure that has not worked but has succeeded in hurting the banks bottom line.)
Most importantly, the conservative people view the low rate environment as an unbearable drag on profits and as compressing NIM even though the banks are still making tons of money – they could always be making much more you know.
This is all anecdotal and thru the lens of someone who has an Econ degree and reads blogs like this so take my observations w a grain of salt. I don’t much pay attention to the details in the conspiracy theory / conservative shit when someone rants about it because I instantly stop listening lol.
Saturday ~ April 21st, 2012 at 5:44 pm
thearmotrader
Here’s QE from what I understand it does.
(Before I start, its important to know that QE is NOT money printing, QE is merely an ASSET SWAP. FED gets treasuries, and in return credits reserves (cash). Its like if I gave you $100 million in cash for your $100 million worth of bonds. No change in the private sector. The treasuries are no longer in the private sector, so no increase in Net Financial Assets (NFA) for the private sector. I like to think of it that whatever the FED buys, it ends up in a “blackhole”)
1) By lowering interest rates by removing supply from the market, the FED is trying to “stimulate” the economy. In a normal environment, this would work. However, as we know, the recession we witnessed in 2008-2009 was abnormal than the previous recessions dating back to the Great Depression.
The recession caused a balance sheet recession (BSR), where the private sector is looking to save/pay down debt rather then spend/invest/borrow. Because of this, lowering interest rates have little effect to “jump start” the economy.
2) However, QE is not all that ineffective. There are some “side-effects”
A) Lowers Interest Income, + deflationary
-Since yields are being lowered, the private sector is receiving LESS interest income, which would actually in this economy (the one of a BSR) be more stimulative THAN lower interest rates. So the fact that the private sector is receiving less NFA because of lower yields hurts the economy. If for example I was receiving 2% on my CDs instead of 1%, then I would be able to spend more (or use it to pay down debt, thus speeding up the BSR)
Also, because of the fact that QE is an asset swap, the very operation of conducting QE is actually deflationary because a 2% yielding financial asset (for example, using the 10 year) is being swapped with an asset (cash aka reserves) that yields 0-0.25%.
B) Chase for yield + risk
-QE causes structural change though. Because yields are being lowered, that causes pensions/funds who have to meet certain requirements “chase yield’. The go for more risky assets yielding higher like IG, HY, RMBS CMBS and etc.)….
This chase for risk also leads the market higher as people decide to buy Equities in the face of lower yields.
C) Psycholigcal component
-This is big IMO. People think “QE” is money printing so they go out and buy assets that would protect themselves against inflation (stocks, gold, commodities), and sell assets that would lose value in the face of inflation (bonds, US Dollar).
-
D) Banks hurt b/c of lower rates
-QE actually hurts banks ability to make a profit because ias we know banks borrow short and lend long. When that spread narrows, they make less.
—————————-
“Supposed negatives”
-QE is money printing thus the dollar loses value.
QE is NOT money printing, its an asset swap. The private sector does NOT recieve any new NFA (in fact they lose it). Anything that goes into the FED is a “black hole” (aka not in the real economy).
-Low rates will cause a bubble.
That wont happen in a BSR environment where nobody is borrowing. Yes, if we continue QE for years (>2015), then yes once the environment normalizes, then bubbles might start forming. But if the FED is not conducting QE now, what makes anybody think they will do it in the (healthier) economy (presumably)?
Sunday ~ April 22nd, 2012 at 3:15 pm
What We Talk About When We Talk About QE - NYTimes.com
[...] } } // April 22, 2012, 3:04 pmWhat We Talk About When We Talk About QEKarl Smith is bemused; in two posts he asks what Wall Street thinks quantitative easing does, and apparently is getting a lot of [...]
Sunday ~ April 22nd, 2012 at 6:21 pm
dwb
i can only tell you my interpretation: the financial press is looking for signs that the fed is committed to closing the output gap and not prematurely tightening. more qe is a sign the fed is comfortable with speed and would like things to speed up.
in terms of real effects, the fed says it lowers effective long term rates
Sunday ~ April 22nd, 2012 at 6:43 pm
An awesome comment « John Barrdear
[...] Smith is asking what financial market participants, as opposed to central bankers or academic economists, believe [...]
Sunday ~ April 22nd, 2012 at 7:48 pm
dwb
as far as risks, i think you see the same variety of opinions in economists (williamson, Taylor, etc): the risks of inflation getting unhinged (esp from old school monetarists looking at reserves, not accounting for the relatively new IOR policy.
a lot of opinions at banks flow from fed watching economists. Fisher says QE has big risks. ask him.
more importantly: the financial press is more about eyeballs than analysis. i doubt youll get a thoughtful response. theyll print what gets the most attention regardless of veracity. when it comes down to it, you can find a talking head to put on and advocate any crazy idea
Sunday ~ April 22nd, 2012 at 8:08 pm
Matt (@MeCampbell30)
I am confused. Does the wall street community think QE is something other than the Fed buying assets in exchange for reserves?
Monday ~ April 23rd, 2012 at 9:20 am
Randy
The area I work in is highly senstivie to monetary policy. These seem be the three main points conveyed by others:
1) Interest rate policy is the Fed’s only tool.
2) QE does little/nothing to impact the economy as the cash just sits on bank balance sheets due to IOER.
but…
3) The expanded monetary base and securities holdings present significant inflationary risk upon Federal Reserve exit from ZRP.
Monday ~ April 23rd, 2012 at 4:06 pm
Kode Hollerith
Thought QE was first about liquidity and improving mark to market then later about narrowing the spread between long term and short term rates by changing the demand side of the equation. There are all kinds of opinions on the impacts from that which is what I’m reading here rather than a reply to your actual post.
Monday ~ April 23rd, 2012 at 9:16 pm
Jeff
I think the Austrian economists make the most sense and have been the most accurate in predicting what was going to happen… to a T
Here’s a nice power point presentation by Roger W. Garrison Professor of economics at Auburn University:
Here’s a YouTube of TV interviews of Peter Schiff predicting the housing bubble, with the “experts” mocking him, & Bernanke explaining why he didn’t think there was any bubble:
Here’s what Mr. Schiff had said in May 2004:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/181514-bernanke-denying-the-obvious
“That so many are currently opting for ARMs reflects a level of real estate speculation unparalleled in American history. Homebuyers have been lured into this foolish choice by… a Fed chairman desperate to keep the real estate bubble inflating. Unfortunately, the longer the Fed remains “patient” with regard to raising short-term interest rates to appropriate levels, the more homeowners that will be lured into the ARM time bomb.
The real losers in this whole fiasco are likely to be those who did not even participate in the mania. As over-leveraged borrowers walk away from properties in which they have no equity, the Fed will most likely attempt to bail out both debtors and bank depositors (and the government sponsored enterprises that insured the loans) with the most inflationary monetary policy ever undertaken in the history of central banking. The savings of an entire generation will be wiped out, as it will have been squandered to perpetuate the biggest real estate and consumer debt bubbles of all time.”
Monday ~ April 23rd, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Jeff
I forgot to mention that mises.org has tons of materials on Austrian economics, including not only books and videos, but much online resources as well, including free online books in .pdf format, some of which are timelss classics.
Here’s a page on resources in re: Austrian Business Cycle Theory learning materials
http://mises.org/Community/wikis/economics/austrian-business-cycle-theory-learning-materials.aspx
Tuesday ~ April 24th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Gabe Harris
I work as a natural gas market analyst and have clients at most of the biggest banks and energy trading shops in the country. I have a CFA and some people consider me to be conservative although I don’t think the taditional left-right paradigm is a particularly useful way to frame politcal discussions.
I’d be happy to disccuss how I believe QE affects commodity markets. gabeharris@alum.mit.edu
Tuesday ~ April 24th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Gabe Harris
What Is It That Wall Street Thinks QE Does?
I think it is a mistake to think that “Wall Street” is monolithic in their beliefs regarding Quantitative Easing. It is also overly simplistic to lump all “banks” into one basket…some have better connections to power than others. They have many different strategies, goals and timeframes for gaining market share and making money.
Wednesday ~ May 16th, 2012 at 12:03 am
Did QE2 Really Cause Inflation? | TheArmoTrader
[...] financial assets are the real economy. Now, there are psychological and structural changes that arise from QE, but for the most part, there is no fundamental economic change, as in, there is no inflation [...]