As I said, Bullard’s thinking on the output gap mirrors that of a lot folks.
Tyler Cowen points to this from Sober Outlook.
A key part of the post says
This output gap, thought often taken for granted, may in fact be much smaller. Some recent work by Barclays Capital has already shown that the potential GDP (red line) is basically extrapolating the bubble of the pre-crisis era and is therefore unreliable.
The CBO number crunchers wish to believe in their ability to compute the potential GDP of the US economy. The reality is that nobody knows how much output the US economy is truly capable of. But there are signs that the gap may now be below the CBO’s assertion.
In one sense the bolded paragraph is true. No one knows for sure exactly what you could get out of the US economy, especially if you want to get the highest value added production. This is part because its not completely clear what “highest valued added production” might even mean in thoroughly consistent way.
However, it we take a step back and ask more or less how much could you squeeze out the US economy, in terms of easily recognizable production we could probably back of the envelope this without too, too much trouble.
For example, if we started building lots of cars at roughly the prevailing mix as in 2007, it would be difficult to come up with a concept of “highest value added production” under which that would be the right thing to do.
If nothing else overwhelmingly the odds are that the mix of cars should be tilted slightly more towards high fuel efficiency models if one wanted to maximize value.
Nonetheless, if we produced 600K F-150s we can be pretty confident that we could exchange the marginal F-150 for not too many fewer unskilled labor hours than we could in 2007.
That is, we take the very last F-150 to roll off the lot and we put out the call to America and say, of everyone out there who is willing to work the most hours for me in exchange for this truck. Its unlikely the number will be much lower than it was in 2007.
Which in economic terms is to say if we use unskilled labor – which is raw human time or the basic unit of life – as the numeraire good, the marginal valuation of an F-150 at 600K units is not likely to be that much less than it was before the crisis.
All that is to say that we could back of the envelope this sucker and we wouldn’t be too far off.
However, I think the even deeper point comes from a self-link in the post
Barclays Capital: …the CBO estimates that output was at potential during the housing bubble years and that any deviation from the trend established during those years represents an output gap. In contrast, our view is that the housing bubble pushed the economy above its potential; thus, we believe the output gap is much smaller.
In fact if one zooms in on this chart, it starts to make much more sense than the original BEA/CBO analysis that assumed the US was producing at capacity prior to the financial crisis. The Barclays chart shows that economic output between 2004 and 2007 had been growing at a rate above what it is normally capable of. One can only interpret this production level above capacity as simply funded by credit, particularly real estate driven credit.
The key question – and maybe someone at Barclay’s wants to have this conversation – is what reason is there to believe that the housing bubble punched the economy above its potential?
My main reason for asking is simply that I just don’t know of any actual empirical evidence to suggest this is the case or what a consistent narrative about this would be.
However, to nudge folks forward into the conversation I will note that standard economics – sans Barro - says the exact opposite. A housing bubble should drive output below its long run trend. Ditto for a credit bubble.
Why?
Well, because as people got wealthier they would attempt to cash in on some of that wealth. IE, cash-out-refinances, etc.
They would then use those funds to buy things.
One of the things people like to buy is not working or investing in the future. Both working and investing in the future are costly and folks only do it because there is a return – which is determined by the actual marginal products of capital and labor.
As you get wealthier the marginal benefit of that return is worth less to you and so you do less of it. You work less. You invest less.
Working less directly subtracts output from the economy. Thus making it smaller.
Investing less leaves us with a smaller capital stock meaning we are able to produce less in the future, thus subtracting from future output.
So, both of these factors depress output.
Now, what happens when the bubble pops. In a smoothly functioning economy those trends reverse. First, you start saving more because suddenly you are not as wealthy as you thought.
Second, you start working more to because (A) You can’t live off cash-outs anymore and (B) you have to repay the cash-out you already performed, when you thought you were richer.
In this case what we would see is production roar back towards the trend line it was on before.
In a fundamental way we would say that the output (the potential output) of the economy is determined by tastes and technology, neither of which has changed. And, so the long run path of the economy has not changed.
The only alternative is to suggest – as Stephen Williamson might be – that the housing bubble or its predicates were themselves a technology that in fact boosted the productive potential of the economy.
Once they are gone we are left with an inferior technological stock.
To be more specific, the idea would be that collateral is a productive asset solely on the basis of it being collateral because it facilitates mutually beneficial trades that could otherwise have not occurred.
I am sympathetic to this view. Indeed, I used to quasi-hold it and I still think its qualitatively true. I just don’t think that its quantitatively important. The stream of housing services that could be obtained in a high collateral world is higher, but its not that much higher and we are still receiving the stream.


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Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Assorted links — Marginal Revolution
[...] bottom line is that the output gap probably isn’t nearly as large as is often claimed. And Karl Smith comments, I would note the connection between the ppf and [...]
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 4:01 pm
Jeff
I have a couple of empirical & conceptual questions here.
First, we know there was a housing bubble, but housing is just one part of the total economy. So to what extent did the housing bubble mean that the total economy was in a bubble? I ask this, because I look at the chart copied from their post, and I can’t see the bubble, whereas I have seen it in other charts such as Case-Shiller, so I’m not just blind.
Second, the CBO’s (supposedly) bad line spears 2007. I was under the impression that the housing bubble peaked in 2005, and ‘burst’ shortly thereafter, but didn’t tank the whole economy until later as it continued to snowball and combined with other factors. When did the housing bubble peak? When did it pop? If these things did occur ~2005, does that render the issue of the nominal level in 2007 being inflated moot?
Lastly, you once blogged that the NGDP path has been much more stable than anything else (e.g., real GDP) for a very long time. If the question is simply which values we ought to use to anchor the line in the aughts, what would happen if we just skipped them and estimated this by drawing the trend line from far back in the past up through, say, 2000, and then projecting that forward? How much would our estimate of economic potential change? I’m aware of the issues with forecasting time-series far out into the future, but I still think it would be an interesting thought experiment.
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 4:49 pm
DBonar
I don’t think people are as flexible about working as you suggest. Because most jobs don’t allow a smoothly adjustable amount of time spent working, I think most people increase the amount they spend on leisure activities — buying “better” leisure — rather than working less — i.e. buying more leisure. Your house (or investments) go up in value so you feel less need to defer spending, but they generally don’t go up enough that you can quit your job.
On a related note, it isn’t clear to me that working less would in all cases directly shrink the economy as measured by GDP. If salaried work is often about relative competition between you and your peers for promotion, then it is possible that for such workers, reduced hours at work because they feel less need for the next promotion immediately may not reduce GDP at all.
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Greg Ransom
Karl Smith for central planner
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 6:09 pm
Greg Ransom
Karl writes,
“The key question is what reason is there to believe that the housing bubble punched the economy above its potential?
My main reason for asking is simply that I just don’t know what a consistent narrative about this would be.”
It’s called “forced savings” and it’s not sustainable — and it’s explained by Friedrich Hayek in some rather famous Nobel Prize winning economics.
As far as I can tell, it is not in your professional self-interest as an academic economists to learn or understand this part of your science. In fact, it is is your professional interest to be ignorant of this part of your science — the same professional self-interent German & French biologists between 1870 and somewhere in the later part of the 20th century had in not learning or understanding Darwin’s work.
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 6:49 pm
Greg Ransom
Using a production possibilities frontier construction, economist Roger Garrison has made a Power Point presentation laying out how “potential output” is artificially expended and then inevitably contracts:
http://www.auburn.edu/~garriro/macro.htm
Garrison has also written many books and articles on the topic.
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Becky Hargrove
Greg,
Stop for a moment and think about what you have been doing with your anger, for several months now. Do you not want the world to be a better place?
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 1:54 am
Greg Ransom
More ignorance rather than less ignorance is suppose to create a better world? How does that work?
I’d like to encourage economists to get out of their comfort zone & become acquanted with some rather significant alternative ways to think about the problems of their science and the explanatory strategy for tackling them — stretegies advanced by the most highly regarded of thinkers.
I’d also like to encourage economist to entertain possibility of the non-scientific and non- explanatory basis of much of their approch to economic “science” — a claim argued by some of the best mind in the field.
And I’d like to encourage them to know something of the intellectual history of their science, which they were not exposed to as graduate students — a cognitive problem of the profession noted by a number of leading economists.
These are real issues and problems — problems compounded by the incentive structure of professional economics — as countless economists have pointed out.
It seemed obvious that Garrison’s work on beyond-potential economic production was directly relevant to Karl’s inquiry — as also are the sociological and meta-scientific facts about the profession which would explain why Karl seems never heard of this Nobel Prize winning advance in economic science.
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 3:06 am
Karl Smith
I’ve been through Garrisons powerpoint and I have Time and Money on my desktop and have read thoroughly his sections on Capital and Time.
Indeed, I did a presentation and am preparing a paper on “Why You Shouldn’t Believe the Austrian Account of the Great Recession”
Which I bill as addressing Austrian Economics on its on terms. It takes a hermetical approach and discusses competing narratives and what they imply.
So, I am completely sensitive to all this work
Its just that the narrative isn’t consistent with basic facts about the period. I looked through US production stats and its not clear what intermediate production was hollowed out during this period, nor does their appear to be a decrease in maintenance – indeed maintiance and rennovation rose during this period. Nor, is their an increase in the price of intermediate goods. Nor, is there more intensive use – by the US economy – of crude goods.
So, I just don’t think this is a workable story. Maybe you have some additions that would cause it work out
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 4:00 am
Greg Ransom
Great. I look forward to reading it.
The other side of the “Hayek” macro look at the boom and bust of the ’00 is the expansion and contraction of the size and liquidity of assests that function as alternatives to or substitutes for money, the rise and fall of what Credit Suisse economists call “shadow money”, and Stephen Williamson discusses in his defense of Bullard describing the rise and fall of the financial and money roles of housing assets, mortgage securities, and related financial instruments.
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 4:18 am
Greg Ransom
I’m not sure why in a non-closed system intermediate production has to be sizably hollowed out in the United States — i.e. for a national economy operating within a larger internation system things play out differently than Garrison’s closed system construction, e.g. the expansion of short period consumables bankrolled by 2nd mortgages on homes took the form of such things as imports and trips overseas.
In an open-system with imports and borrowing from abroad all levels of production and consumption can be expanded, in unsustainable ways — this is another aspect of Hayek’s macro not found in Garrison (jist as most of Hayek’s monetary disequilibrium macro can’t be found in Garrison).
The virtue of Garrison’s work is that it shows one way with general systematic features how beyond potential output can be temporarily generated. Historical instantiations may vary significantly in character, especially given the non-closed nature of a national economy sitting within an international context.
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
Greg Ransom
Karl, a point of logic.
In the complex sciences, a “how possible” explanation is a first step in the process of explaining “how actual”.
Example.
Darwin’s “how possible” explanation of adapation and the origin of species showed how these patterns could be the product of a mechanism. No longer is the appeal always to “and then a miracle occured”.
But then the hard part comes, providing the “how actual” details — an explanatory orocess than is never really completed fullymdo to limits onmour knowledge.
But the factual limits or our knowledge — or imagination — don’t require us to go running back to the creationists.
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 1:58 pm
greg ransom
Fully do to limits on our knowledge
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 8:01 pm
Jon
The problem here continues to be with the GDP statistics. When transfer payments get classified as output, GDP puffs up. Then there is some shock, the net of which is that those transfer payments end or are curtailed. GDP looks depressed afterward, but it isn’t.
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
Lord
About the only reason one could presume it was operating beyond potential would be the oil price spike. I am not so sure a credit bubble would lead to a fall in output. They would expect to be wealthier in the future, but they aren’t really that much wealthier now or in a position not to work and continue to expect that. Borrowings would have to be paid back and few could do so without work. I agree the shortfall in wealth in the aftermath would induce workers to want to work more but attempting to liquidate that debt counteracts that desire without the willingness of someone else to expand their debt. It would be nice if the economy expanded fast enough for total debt to fall and still leave enough to lower unemployment but the Fed has a problem with that.
In any event, the real question is whether we are below potential now and it is very difficult to imagine otherwise. A better argument for Bullard would be a bubble burst and left us much below where we should be, but it takes time for the economy to repair itself and we just need patience. The problem with this is we would need infinite patience at the rate we are going.
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 4:07 am
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[...] More on the Output Gap – Modeled Behavior [...]
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 4:22 am
Links for 2012-02-19 | FavStocks
[...] More on the Output Gap – Modeled Behavior [...]
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 5:31 am
fgw
Just curious: did investment in the future empirically decline in the bubble? I would assume greed would ramp it up
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 5:47 am
samb
Not that I agree with the “over capacity GDP” argument, but here is at least one way it could be justified.
A chunk of GDP in 2007 comprised “final” (sale) value of a whole lot of new houses or condos. The same number of houses/condos (of equal quality) would be worth (i.e. “sell for”) a lot less money today … thus taking a few basis points out of the “GDP” figure.
Another chunk of the GDP was bonuses to mortgage brokers and bankers who were putting together and selling structured securities. Some of those bonuses were being spent on $1000 dinners and other “entertainment”, the final (sale) price of which was included in the GDP figure. People still eat and get entertained, but the chefs who were making $200 dishes and the waiters getting $500 tips are now working in more mid-price venues, where their “same” physical output contributes less to the dollar value GDP figure. There go a few more basis points.
Once can go on and on like this … the F-150 was probably selling for a fair bit more per unit of labor input than a Fiesta or Focus draw today, etc …
SamB
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 9:17 am
Neildsmith
As a lay person, I find this to be one of the strangest debates since the recession started. If everyone bought a new car every year instead of just when they need one, then the output gap would be closed soon enough. But I don’t need a new car every year. It is certainly possible (probable even) that some portion of the population are under-nourished, cold, and without decent housing. This is a shame and is currently being mitigated by all sorts of safety net programs. But the economists are asking for more… They want me to buy and consume stuff I really don’t need because of some imaginary output gap. I have everything I need and a garage full of junk to prove it. Thanks for the concern, but if our economic future is going to be determined by how much unnecessary junk I buy, well, we’re in trouble.
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 11:00 am
Becky Hargrove
I’m a lay person too, and will try to at least explain why some of the frustration exists. It’s what that output gap might potentially cause (who knows) that is so bothersome. So many service jobs are also not a direct source of wealth in themselves and consequently are endangered in the future, in the present terms that they exist. So when we think in terms of money, will we have enough jobs if the factories are not up and running? Just a few of the issues.
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Peter K.
“They want me to buy and consume stuff I really don’t need because of some imaginary output gap.”
That’s not true. They want us to fix roads and bridges and schools and things that will help. One can’t argue that those things don’t need doing.
This is a good time to do it because the government can borrow at really low rates. When the economy is humming again (or when we have our next bubble) they can raise taxes to pay down the debt.
It’s a mistake to map your situation on to what’s happening in the economy as a whole. That’s a layperson mistake.
It’s like is someone during the Great Depression said “there’s no output gap I already have a lot of junk in my garage and don’t need to buy anymore useless junk these economists want me to buy.”
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 1:23 pm
Neildsmith
I thought our economist friends only wanted to increase government spending until private spending made up the gap. I am suggesting that private spending won’t make up the gap because it doesn’t need to.
Sunday ~ February 19th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
David Pearson
Karl,
Your mistake is in seeing the impact on collateral purely in terms of housing activity services, rather than the impact on services in general. It is also in seeing the productive capacity of the economy through a “factory nameplate” lens.
The truth is the vast majority of the economy is services that don’t have rated capacities. The extensive use of housing collateral affected services output in many ways:
-by creating higher income growth expectations, it shifted tastes to consumption of discretionary services to the present
-it created an unprecedented increase in the availability of start-up capital (housing net worth) for small services businesses
-it drove capital flows to China, allowing it to expand supply and improve the services terms of trade, and therefore the profit margins of services businesses
The distinguishing feature of this recession has been the loss of services jobs and the slow recovery in discretionary services spend. I would not expect that the Fed’s attempt to increase inflation (i.e. the oil price) would improve either of these trends.
Sunday ~ February 26th, 2012 at 3:10 am
Presidents’ Day Morning Links | Iacono Research
[...] rest of world – Globe & Mail Flaws in CBO’s output gap measure – Sober Look More on the Output Gap – Modeled Behavior The Government and the Currency – Mises A New Bull Market? – [...]