My growing sense is that the core intellectual struggles surrounding the Great Recession have been practically resolved.
There were three core things that needed to be understood.
1) That the near term future of capitalism could only be secured by hurling huge sums of money at the US banking system in 2008-2009. That was done.
2) That a perhaps not cataclysmic but nonetheless horrific second global financial crisis could only be secured against by hurling huge sums of money at the European banking system in 2011. That was done.
3) That the global downturn is a phenomenon of Aggregate Demand in general and liquidity/collateral constraints in particular. As such it would be alleviated by the easing of credit and the transferring of liabilities from the liquidity constrained to the liquidity free.
Though too little was done in time, this point has more or less been ceded by a critical mass of the intelligentsia. Furthermore, in the US, per-capita depreciation is proceeding at such a rate that the liquidity free would be induced – against their individual risk tolerance and rate of time preference – to procure large quantities of capital.
The attempt to do this will transfer purchasing power to the liquidity constrained and will thus alleviate the crisis.
And, there are enough people with strong enough voices who understand and are communicating this to keep efforts at stopping at bay.
More could be done policy wise, but I do not think at this point more is likely to be forth coming simply because we talk about it. Too much is riding on the opinions of people who are not interested in the conversation.
So, as a practical intellectual matter the Great Recession is done.
It is time to move to other things.
Here are three that I think are important to get to next.
Reason and Economic Policy
I used to believe that the disagreements in the economics/policy/elite journalism world were founded on attempts to seize the zeitgeist through intellectual intimidation. That is people pretended to be arguing over policy issues but instead were try to push the political culture towards their preferred answers to meta-questions of policy.
For example, is providing lots of assistance to the poor something society should embrace. Is letting people keep what they earn something society should embrace.
Everything else, I thought, was window dressing.
Yet, watching the blogosphere I have come to doubt this. For example, there were strong pushes to adopt policies which would make almost everyone poorer and the poor relatively poorer. Who supports this outcome?
For sure, there is disagreement on values but I don’t think in translates into that much disagreement on policy. There is also bullshit, properly defined, but I think it is of a derivative order. The bullshitters are attempting to prop a policy view that has genuine support.
So, I think “being genuinely wrong” is a more important problem than I originally realized.
The thing is, everyone is looking at roughly the same evidence. So the problems here have to be problems with reason and interpretation.
Listening to people debate I think the biggest problem is reason. In some cases one could replace the words “progressivity” with “jam” or “growth” with “blueberry muffins” and the arguments would be no more or less sensible. That is to say, the disagreement is not even semantic.
This is one reason why I encourage my colleagues to be gentle rather than mean. Another – so that we my be honest – is that I am, obviously, viscerally uncomfortable with meanness.
Nonetheless, if people are making errors of reason yelling at them is not likely to help them because being yelled at makes it more difficult for people to focus. It is also not likely to put readers in a mode where they are more open to reason. Instead they are likely to view this as a sporting match and try to determine who is and is not on their team.
GDP is Dead
I wanted to make my first mention of this funnier, but its better just to get something down.
Its understandable that before the internet, fast search and laptops capable of handling huge data files folks would want the best summary statics of the economy they could get.
The concept of GDP is a good attempt at a consistent representation of the total economic output of a region.
However, in the modern era we don’t really need it for most purposes. Maybe some sort of historical and cross country record keeping where the data is incompatible.
In the US, however, we have much more direct measures of the variables of interest. Indeed, we have access to many of the addends which are used to create GDP in the first place and there is no reason I know of that we couldn’t lobby to make all of them available.
Given that, why still focus so much on GDP?
In order to make it consistent and add up correctly we have to make lots of compromises which obscure our understanding of the economy. Why not brush GDP aside and focus on the disaggregated data that we care about.
Indeed, given the way he talks about the issue I wonder if Scott Sumner might be happier with nominal compensation of employees as his stabilization target:

Here is the trend by the way

Notice the different dynamics of the two “bubble” recessions.
Capital
As I have been talking around for a while there is – what look to me – to be poor intuition concerning physical capital and investment. This is unfortunate because unlike a lot of concepts in economics physical capital is tangible. We can actually go visit the capital.
To make this more clear, here is the simple data
This is important because the blue category is the stuff of everyday life. The red are things we might not interact with everyday but deeply get on a non-macro economic level.
Our daily experience can influence how we think about the capital stock. More importantly, we can relate our daily feelings with our feelings about growth and the US.
For example, when you say this capital gains tax increase will reduce investment and hence growth what you mean is that some developer will decide to build a smaller shopping center. I don’t mean this derisively. One of my biggest complaints is that Cameron Village needs to be expanded and that there is neither a Ross nor a Marshalls Inside-the-Beltline.
Yet, these are the complaints of investment and capital accumulation and we should understand that.
You can also think about how the type of things we debate on a macro level weigh against concerns like: local zoning restrictions or enterprise-ready open source software.
P.S.
I forgot to note that I included manufacturing facilities in the “Everything Else” category even though they are buildings because most folks don’t regularly interact with a manufacturing plant.

31 comments
Comments feed for this article
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
Curt Doolittle
Insufficient argument. You’re selecting the properties of the argument that reinforce your position while ignoring those that do not. Since you deny that the expansion of government, the expansion of debt, the misallocation of human capital, and the conversion of intergenerational cooperation to intergenerational dependence, while at the same time denying that
The consensus among Monetarists and Keyensians is of course, consolidated. The consensus among political economists, who have a broader range of inquiry is not so.
As you’ve said before. You make your assessments according to short term benefit assuming we will work everything out at some time int he future. Thus giving yourself credit for insights that are simply a different version of the monetary policies of antiquity that eventually failed.
I could argue, that you and Krugman have an agenda. Your agenda is to dismantle the Competitive Aristocratic Manorial political system that is the source of the west’s cultural and economic success. And that you’re just using short term redistribution as a means of satisfying your underlying emotional sentiments — and that there is no reason whatsoever to your arguments. I could argue that you have a dozen different agendas taht are all destructive.
They are either self deceptions or intentional deceptions or both. Failing deceptions they are preferences. Failing preferences they are errors. And errors that the future generations will suffer for.
It is not a demonstration of intelligence to be short sighted. It is just self interest.
The purpose of corrections is to redirect human capital — to inform us that we have over exploited an opportunity. Corrections are very valuable. Amplifying them or pushing them into the future so that there are vast changes in political, geostrategic, or civilization-ending failures is not a ‘good’. It’s just selfishness.
And if you disagree you cannot make an argument for environmentalism without self contradiction.
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Karl Smith
So,
1) What is the missing phrase at the end of your first paragraph. I think it is key.
2) To be sure, I assert that everything will not work out in the future and that this is unavoidable.
3) The agenda you’re proposing for me, doesn’t sound like me, to me. I am fairly tolerant of aristocracy.
4) The case I made at GMU was that there is no confirming evidence of any misdirection of human capital.
5) You should ask Brad Johnson and the guys at Think Progress what they thinks of my environmentalism. I believe they petitioned to have me sent to a gulag.
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 9:09 am
Curt Doolittle
1) (Can you please have the admins install the WP plug-in that allows editing of comments for X minutes? It would take two minutes. It helps everyone. Especially those of us who comment when we have a spare moment and are frequently rushed. You’re getting enough traffic now that you pretty much need it.)
2a) I mean the collective ‘you’. Keynesians. I’ve repeatedly stated that I believe you’re honest in your positions. Im arguing that I could use your positions to advocate multiple undesirable outcomes. As such they are insufficient arguments.
2b) I think your concept of Aristocracy is purely financial – an artifact of a class and little more. Aristocracy in political system refers to a competitive propertarian set of institutions one property of which suppresses birth rates for the unproductive. It is the progenitor to the corporation which sorts for fitness. I am pretty sure you consistently prefer to err on the other side – make people consume rather than make people productive. Your ‘laziness’ comment is a recent example: in which equated the necessity of blindness with the preference for laziness.
4) Well I answered that in response to your next post. And either you’re using a narrow interpretation of terms, or you’re interpreting human capital as an egalitarian aggregate. I can’t tell which. You could be arguing that the excess labor would be consumed no matter what pattern of trade we ballooned with credit. Im not sure. What I’m sure of is that the upper 10%’s activities minus lower end birth rates determine employment of the unwashed masses. So it’s not necessarily a matter of the employment abandoning males, or the family poverty of single motherhood and singletons, or unskilled immigrants, or the increase in ignorance, but the fact that misallocation of capital is a network wherein the top 10% flock to local credit driven opportunities rather international competitive opportunities, and which of these actions will employ greater numbers of people.
5) The collective ‘You’ again. One cannot have a short time preference AND and support environmental advocacy without entering a long chain of value judgements that are a contradiction. The four value judgements that identifying a progressive are a) short time preference, b) hubristic view of human ability c) false consensus bias d) ahistorical or non-historical positivism. As such, the utility of the progressive values is simply an effort to seek power to satisfy one’s preferences in the face of contradictory evidence.
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
teageegeepea
Who does this broader range of “political economists” refer to? Public finance or public choice scholars? Laymen on the internet?
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 9:16 am
Curt Doolittle
I’m using the term under it’s original meaning: a branch of moral philosophy wherein political models and institutions use economic prosperity as the means of determining positive and negative judgements.
I’m trying to avoid the appropriated term “Austrian” and all the baggage that now carries, and still use what antipositivist terminology is available. That requires reaching back a bit.
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 9:41 am
Curt Doolittle
Neither of us read very carefully.
1) I said ‘broader range of inquiry’, not ‘broader range of economists’. You misread my statement. (I’m forgiving. I do it three or four times a day myself.)
2) I have a Friedmanian approach to ad hominems. So don’t go there unless you really want to play. I use my real name. I’m an open book. I don’t hide. That I chose the material wealth and creative freedom of entrepreneurship over endemic academic politics and middle class income is not a measure of ability but of choice – particularly given my field of interest which would limit me to one or two university PhD programs and near zero academic positions. And still, having succeeded in multiple fields already, I’m fairly confident that I’ll succeed in contributing to my little narrow field of inquiry now that I can afford to pursue it full time. ( And this way I still get to enjoy my Ferrari while doing it.
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 11:19 am
teageegeepea
You said “consensus of political economists”. I don’t care how much money you personally have. I wouldn’t consider everyone who has talked politics on the internet to be a political economist, nor would the consensus of internet commenters be worth much.
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Curt Doolittle
Again. I said, and I quote: “political economists who have a broader range of inquiry”. I did not say “all policial economists, who of necessity have a broader range of inquiry.” I could have said “those political economists who have a broader range of inquiry.” But in search for brevity I assumed context carried the precision. I also defined political economists. That definition as I gave it, contains the set of political philosophers – and if you don’t know, that means the anti-positivists. In the context of this debate, public choice and public finance economists you’re referring to, exist within the status quo. It may not be obvious to you that’s what you’re arguing. It should be fairly obvious that I’m referring to the heterodox set since I’m a member of it. Unless you’re unfamiliar with the terms.
Statement stands. The old school anti-positivist consensus from King to GMU to Boettke to Sowell, Cato, the Heritage and others – to the more radical groups I spend most of my time with, have maintained their consensus for decades: credit expansion intensifies and lengthens busts and booms. We do not debate that fiscal and monetary policy accomplish the short term ends. We debate that the consequences are worse than the benefits. We also argue that systemic increase in corporatism is a function of the state sponsorship of it. No one disagrees over the terms of the dispute. Macro solves the problem top down, micro solves the problem bottom up. Someday they will meet in the middle.
Our side argues (with Taleb taking some of the lead these days) that we’re creating a systemic fragility is very dangerous thing. Some of us (the propertarians) argue the reasons why. Some propose radicals solutions (the Rothbardians). Some of us propose institutional solutions to extend the classical liberal model. (Hoppe through expansion of insurance companies. And maybe me in my own little way propose less democratically tolerable solutions.)
The Keynesians want to spend, the monetarists to inflate, the neo-classicals to repair institutions and the austrians to emphasize human capital at the expense of everything else. None of these levers are methodologically wrong. All work. All work on different time frames and all have consequences – externalities. We each simply favor different externalities. We all prefer one kind of evil to another. It’s not that anyone disagrees on the tools, just the consequences.
So either you don’t understand our you’re trolling. I don’t know which. But if you don’t understand, then hopefully this helps.
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 10:02 pm
teageegeepea
Sorry, I was not trying to troll. It now sounds like you are defining the set of “political economists of broader …” by the consensus they accept/reject. Is that correct? Because it sounds like a circular argument. Furthermore, I’m not sure how well many of your specific examples fit. Arnold Kling presents himself as being in opposition to mainstream macro, but his actual view seems hard to pin down. I don’t recall him saying much about positivism, more that he prefers a trade model to a GDP factory kind of model.
Generalizing to other GMU bloggers, Bryan Caplan is certainly anti-positivist philosophically. But in economics he seems entirely orthodox (though he has many extreme positions, of which outside of immigration I tend to share). Tyler Cowen identified as an Austrian when he was younger, now both he and Tabarrok seem more mainstream than Caplan. Robin Hanson is arguably unusual in how high he holds the standard economist ideal and tends to rebuke his fellow economists for not practicing what they preach (or at least what he imagines they preach). Garett Jones (on twitter rather than blogging) delves into topics not traditionally considered economics, but the same could be said of Steve Levitt. Again, quite positivist by my impression.
Cato has long had monetarists affiliated with it (I believe David Henderson said it was his own hiring that led to Rothbard’s enmity). When I read their blog it’s pretty common for me to see graphs, tables and other standard elements of positivist argument. I suppose O’Driscoll is the most prominent Austrian I can recall being currently on their staff, though I can’t recall what he’s had to say about positivism there. I know less about Heritage, but I thought it was a fairly standard think tank. They certainly make public choice arguments (I believe a recently deceased Cato scholar had been banging the drums about Milton Friedman being wrong on starving-the-best because the evidence shows it just reduced public opposition to spending), but it sounds like you’re excluding standard public choice scholars from your set of consensus-definers.
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 10:36 pm
teageegeepea
Doh, forgot to discuss Sowell. He was actually an important inspiration for me as a young man when I was first hearing about what might be called Chicago school economics or neoconservative social science. The idea that results matter more than intentions and we can look at a trend line of an outcome to see if there’s any discontinuity after the enactment of a new policy was like a slap in the face to someone immersed in the pieties of the public education system. I suppose those formative years are part of why I felt uncomfortable with the arguments I read emanating from the Mises Institute later on, despite our many shared preferences. I’ve actually got “Black Rednecks & White Liberals” (really ethnography rather than economics) sitting beside my desk right now. I haven’t followed his writing for years though.
Part of the reason I incline toward positivism/empiricism is my distrust of rationalism (not to say I go in for any variety of irrationalism). I think we’re apt to b.s ourselves (because we’re so adapted to b.sing others) when we engage in significant verbal arguments. But we have some rudimentary ability to observe, notice a pattern, and imitate things that seem to work even if we don’t understand why. A dichotomy I often cite is the rationalism/pluralism (that’s not quite the same as empiricism, but it results in more data) axis from Jacob Levy’s Liberalism’s Divide, which I host here. I’m extreme enough on that axis that I don’t really qualify as a libertarian, but I suppose you don’t either for similar reasons.
Tuesday ~ February 14th, 2012 at 12:12 am
nemi
“I’m using the term under it’s original meaning: a branch of moral philosophy wherein political models and institutions use economic prosperity as the means of determining positive and negative judgements.”
Very interesting definition (and precisely how I would define the term). Do you have a reference for it?
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 1:07 pm
Becky Hargrove
Re: your last paragraph. Anytime the discussion of rent control comes up, however anyone feels about it gets superceded by what the debate really means, which often translates into “this city is full”. Does that mean more places need to be created that have desirable ambience not related to income but focused ability on the part of the citizens? That a city needs to be a place with not too many people, or maybe a lot more? Perhaps people need to be able to create places that hold understandable and different value systems in that regard, or ‘identity zoning’ that gives identifiable ways to live in close proximity to one another with greater trust. At the moment we mostly have a hodgepodge of people who have zero desire to know their neighbors, something quite unimaginable only decades earlier.
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Karl Smith
So, to give a very short answer.
The question I would put to is why people do not move to form “identity zones” on their own.
I don’t mean that to dismiss the idea. Presumably either they do not desire to do this or something is preventing them from doing this. Whichever one is the case we would want to investigate it further.
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 3:23 pm
rjs
“The thing is, everyone is looking at roughly the same evidence. So the problems here have to be problems with reason and interpretation.”
this is wrong; reason never has anything to do with it…its visceral & emotional confirmation bias on both sides…
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
theeconomicfractalist
Yes it is dead. It is time for it to be dead….
Saturation Macroeconomics: Gobbledy-Gook or the Real Deal?
Time for a new mathematical model, a new paradigm, for macroeconomics?
Is there a patterned science representing the time dependent evolution of macroeconomics?
The last paragraph of the Economic Fractalist main page http://www.economicfractalist.com/ ….
The ideal growth fractal time sequence is X, 2.5X, 2X and 1.5-1.6X. The first two cycles include a saturation transitional point and decay process in the terminal portion of the cycles. A sudden nonlinear drop in the last 0.5x time period of the 2.5X is the hallmark of a second cycle and characterizes this most recognizable cycle. After the nonlinear gap drop, the third cycle begins. This means that the second cycle can last anywhere in length from 2x to 2.5x. The third cycle 2X is primarily a growth cycle with a lower saturation point and decay process followed by a higher saturation point. The last 1.5-1.6X cycle is primarily a decay cycle interrupted with a mid area growth period. Near ideal fractal cycles can be seen in the trading valuations of many commodities and individual stocks. Most of the cycles are caricatures of the ideal and conform to Gompertz mathematical type saturation and decay curves.
For the Wilshire, the US composite equity index March 09 to October 2011 was a 4 phased Lammert growth and decay fractal series..
x/2.5x/2x/1.5x :: 5/13/10/7 months. That’s an empirical real system observation – available to all – of the time dependent workings of the macroeconomic system.
2005 was the description, the hypothesis – March 2009 to October 2011 was the empirical asset valuation evolution…
The flash crash on 6 May 2010 ….. does that not meet second fractal criteria?
“A sudden nonlinear drop in the last 0.5x time period of the 2.5X is the hallmark of a second cycle and characterizes this most recognizable cycle.”
Maybe this is all occurring by chance alone …. Likely…. Very very very likely ….not.
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Donald Pretari
We did good work. We rediscovered Bagehot, Fisher, & the Chicago Plan of 1933, all of which worked in the 1930s. I can’t wait until the next time we rediscover these Predecessors.
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 7:16 pm
Assorted links — Marginal Revolution
[...] 4. Some bottom lines from Karl Smith. [...]
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 2:10 am
Jon
Karl, I won’t call you a hack–you aren’t, but the first part of that post contained breathtaking partisan quackery. “1) That the near term future of capitalism could only be secured by hurling huge sums of money at the US banking system in 2008-2009. That was done.”
What the hell are you talking about?
—
You need to do a bit of self-reflection. Once the calendar turned over to being an actual election year, you slid off the rails. You’ve got an election year agenda bud, and it’s derailed what used to be a fairly sensible blog.
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 9:24 am
Curt Doolittle
Jon.
Karl is not a quack. He honestly holds his positions and he can articulate why he holds them. He may be the only top blogger I can say that of. I know. I monitor the entire ecosystem.
The truth is that none of us are certain. Economics and sociology are immature fields with a short history and insufficient data. We’re all trying to figure out the human race. And we’re all claiming that our preferences are somehow scientific, and independent of our underlying sentiments both paternal and maternal, and are ultimate truths rather than cognitive biases in a fragile equilibrium. They are not. It is the equilibrium that we don’t know how to measure, not our paternal and maternal sentiments.
I disagree with Karl on the consequences of progressive Keynesian policy (spending). I don’t disagree with him on its operating principles. I think we just don’t know the answers yet, and that we shouldn’t create fragility in our very unique society until we do know.
Tuesday ~ February 14th, 2012 at 12:57 pm
reason
“I think we just don’t know the answers yet, and that we shouldn’t create fragility in our very unique society until we do know.”
????
How is trying to counteract a devastating depression “creating fragility”? You think WWII etc, was a sign of a stable system?
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 9:06 am
A New Standard for Limited Shareholder Liability? – Tyler’s AM Reads – February 13, 2012 « Blog of Rivals
[...] Karl Smith posts about “Reason, GDP, and Capital,” in this interesting post (in the proc…. [...]
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 9:53 am
TheMoneyIllusion » I’m not ready to move on
[...] Karl Smith has an eminently reasonable post on the state of macroeconomics, so naturally I’ll try to poke holes in it: My growing sense is that the core intellectual struggles surrounding the Great Recession have been practically resolved. [...]
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
Benjamin Cole
“I used to believe that the disagreements in the economics/policy/elite journalism world were founded on attempts to seize the zeitgeist through intellectual intimidation. That is people pretended to be arguing over policy issues but instead were try to push the political culture towards their preferred answers to meta-questions of policy.
For example, is providing lots of assistance to the poor something society should embrace. Is letting people keep what they earn something society should embrace.”
I have to hand it to Karl Smith. That is brilliant writing.
Monday ~ February 13th, 2012 at 4:58 pm
FT Alphaville » Further further reading
[...] Karl Smith on (how to) Reason, (the importance of) Capital, and (the problems with) [...]
Tuesday ~ February 14th, 2012 at 9:42 am
reason
“Notice the different dynamics of the two “bubble” recessions.”
No, one is bigger than the other.
Tuesday ~ February 14th, 2012 at 9:44 am
reason
Question
Does your “buildings” value include the value of the land the buildings are built on?
Tuesday ~ February 14th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
reason
I’M going to be honest here Curt, I find your views absolutely repugnant. But that sentence is just nuts.
Tuesday ~ February 14th, 2012 at 1:00 pm
reason
That was a second response to Curt Doolittle at 9:24am on 13 February.
Wednesday ~ February 15th, 2012 at 2:36 am
Reason, GDP and Capital « Modeled Behavior « mawillits
[...] Reason, GDP and Capital « Modeled Behavior. Share this:EmailFacebookTwitterLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. Comments (0) Trackbacks (0) Leave a comment Trackback [...]
Wednesday ~ February 15th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
Defending Karl Smith | Capitalism v3
[...] Modeled Behavior, a commenter pulls an ad hominem: Karl, I won’t call you a hack–you aren’t, but the first [...]
Sunday ~ April 22nd, 2012 at 1:52 am
interfluidity » Two quick responses on choosing depression
[...] Remember Karl Smith’s point that capital is mostly stuff like buildings and cars. In the US, the bond market is roughly twice [...]