A few people have asked about my debate with Bryan Caplan on the issue of how deserving the poor are. I’ll try to give a sense of the case I wanted, though perhaps failed, to make.
My thesis may be best understood this way:
There is no reason to view emotional or mental deficiencies as different in kind from physical ones. To put it in the harshest of terms, if you think someone who is born blind is deserving of sympathy and support then you should think someone who is born lazy and stupid is deserving of sympathy and support.
Further once you concede that the lazy and stupid are deserving of sympathy then its difficult to construct a set of poor people who are not, since these are among the least sympathetic qualities that could cause someone to be poor.
Thus the vast majority of the poor are deserving of sympathy or support.
As to those attributes. To a wider audience this might be a question, but I had assumed that the audience I was going to speak to at GMU would swallow without objection the notion that IQ is more or less fixed before the age of 12. We can talk about the relative influence of genes, prenatal care, nutrition, early childhood education, lead, etc. However, I didn’t think they would dispute that your IQ is determined before what most people would think of as your moral agency. If so, can it reasonably be your fault that you are stupid?
As it happened I was also debating Bryan Caplan, who I thought and still think, would admit that one’s actual level of conscientiousness is probably genetically determined. And, further that this personality attribute underlies most of what the normal world would call “laziness.”
And so again, if one is sympathetic towards those born blind does it not follow that one should be sympathetic towards those born lazy?
Now, that having been said I recognize that there will be a huge visceral aversion to this line of reasoning. And, so I want to do what I can to calm that aversion.
My point was that the reason we feel so differently about disabilities like blindness as opposed to disabilities like laziness, is that its really difficult to fake being blind. Thus there is much less concern that the blind person is taking advantage of you by lying about their blindness.
Its much more difficult to confirm laziness. So much so that people are hesitant to think of it as not a innate property of the person at all. However, our psychological research strongly suggests that this is not true.
What is true is that someone could claim to be lazy when what they really are is indifferent to your suffering. They could say, “ Holding down a job is especially difficult for me” when in reality they feel “I am simply much more concerned with my own happiness than I am with yours and prefer a state of the world in which you suffer so I don’t have to”
Since from the outside we can’t tell which of those two things is true we reject all claims about laziness as unjustified.
However, we can recognize that this is a product of our limited knowledge and not the world itself. If we could tell who had genuinely low conscientiousness versus who simply claimed to have it in order to pass suffering on to others then we would want to distinguish between the two.
This means that our problem is practical and not moral.
It is not that the lazy are underserving but simply that we lack the technology to distinguish them from those faking laziness.
The irony of this, however, is that if we adopted an economic system that was extremely intolerant of laziness, then everyone who still exhibited laziness would be genuinely lazy.
The authentic thing to say to them then would be: I am very sorry that you were born this way. I wish things were different. Unfortunately we lack the technological sophistication to create a better world.
It would be inauthentic to say: You chose not to work and so you deserve what you get.
Indeed, as economists we can instantly detect the inauthenticity of the last statement by conducting the following thought experiment. Suppose that we took someone who is currently in poverty and told them that on threat of death they will obtain and hold a middle class job as well as save and invest according to middle class norms.
And, suppose the person complies. Would it then make sense to say: congratulations you deserve all the net happiness that comes from these actions? After all, our working assumption as economists is that the net happiness from these actions is negative.
That is, the cost of obeying these social norms exceeds the benefit of obeying them and that is precisely why the person didn’t do it of their own accord.
What does it mean to say that the desert of making hard choices is misery?
I think the natural response here would be to say, very well but how do you know they are miserable. Perhaps they feel the same I as I do but were even happier on the street.
Perhaps, and this goes to the deep question interpersonal comparisons of happiness and suffering. Yet, if we want to stop here and say “we can go no further” then don’t we have to give up on all of our notions of suffering and sympathy?
In the face of the seeming agony of achild slowly dying of cancer and the parents grieving the creeping loss are we prepared to say: Well I really don’t know if the lived experience of these people is better or worse than my experience of a pin prick and so sympathy is unwarranted here.
My sense is that we do want to admit the meaningfulness of the suffering of others and that we have at least a somewhat workable mechanism at determining what that is. We should then apply this mechanism to those suffering from laziness.
My approach would go as follows. If you see someone who is a beach bum and looks to not have material care in the world you may be able to imagine saying “I wish that I could be as free of material concerns as that fellow.”
We would not deem him to be suffering and so his poverty is not something about which we would have sympathy.
On the other hand, if you observe an individual repeatedly trying to obtain and hold jobs and repeatedly being fired for not showing up on time or screwing off in minor ways, then we imagine saying “I am glad I am not this fellow. He can’t seem to get it together for the life of him.”
We would then deem him to be suffering and so his poverty is something about which we would have sympathy.
Taken all together this says: Even the least sympathetic reasons for being poor stem ultimately from inborn conditions. A person with those conditions faces a high tradeoff between material comfort and emotional distress. I can recognize what it would mean to say the nature of this tradeoff is preferable to my condition or unpreferable to my condition. If it is unpreferable then I can say, this person was born worse off than me and so is deserving of my sympathy.
And, since we find reason to be sympathetic to some of the least sympathetic reasons, for being poor, consistency should lead us to be sympathetic towards almost all reasons for being poor. And, hence we should declare that few if any persons deserve to be poor.
A Few Notes
Why does this matter: Well on one level I simply appeal to the aesthetic. We try to understand our world and our intuitions about it in a consistent way because doing so is beautiful.
In practice I would say it puts an increased focus on the ability of our technology to support the deserving poor without encouraging fakery.
In a very practical sense it might suggests that programs which depend on 1-1 relationships should be given high levels of moral praise as poverty elimination systems. So, that might mean local charities and organizations with the discretion to support individuals or not based on a long history of working with them should been seen as doing a special good.
Isn’t poverty much more complicated than you laid out: For sure. My point is that there are lots of gray areas regarding sympathy and poverty, but rather than getting bogged down in that lets look at the strongest reasons to be unsympathetic and see if they withstand scrutiny.
Is this just more Pity-Charity Liberalism: Yes. And, I think it’s an ethically more meaningful enterprise than getting up in arms about failures of the meritocracy. I don’t know any moral reason why the talented deserve to prosper and the untalented to fail and so the leveling-of-the-playing-field is of purely instrumental importance. It matters if it makes a more productive society or increases personal fulfillment, but it is not a moral cause unto itself.

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Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 12:34 pm
tjic (@tjic)
> They could say, “ Holding down a job is especially difficult for me” when in reality they feel “I am simply much more concerned with my own happiness than I am with yours and prefer a state of the world in which you suffer so I don’t have to”
But if we are to act charitably to people because of accidents of their birth, by what right can we say that someone who truly does find that holding down a job is hard is more deserving than someone who truly does feel that we should work hard so that they can party?
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
anon
Because we prefer organization over chaos, thus we prefer honesty over deceit and we prefer the truth over lies.
Without that principle our whole discussion here is meaningless: you could be lying and I could be lying. Yet we both know it with a high level of certainty that both of us are making a genuine effort towards a better understanding of this universe.
That’s all we have I’m afraid.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
Curt Doolittle
Banfield: There are plenty of communities where the shortest, most immediately profitable action that serves the self or the family is preferable to any action which has positive external consequences.
Northern European civilization is an outlier.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
anon
Do little:
Japan too.
They are simply offering us a glimpse of the future, showing us the direction that advanced cultures eventually take.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Pkos
I think Karl kind of muddied in talking about selfishness since his basic model is built on the idea of self-interested utility maximization. A better way to illustrate his point is to say that there is a set of the population that would rather not have to work, and that set contains approximately everybody. If you went up to any individual person and offered to support them at their expected income level on the stipulation they do not engage in paid labor, odds are they’d take it. But, obviously we need a good chunk of the eligible population to be working and the more people who are working the better everyone is, ceteris paribus.
If we slashed public and private charity to nothing and pressed the unemployed into labor camps, however, there would probably be a nonzero set of people who were miserable enough in their jobs that we’d consider it a net benefit to global happiness if we exempted them from labor and did without their contributions to GDP. If we relied on self-reporting to identify these people, however, that would create a massive incentive for everyone to overstate how unhappy their work made them.
To put it another way; in a simplified version of a full employment economy, people are opting between one of two bundles of hardships: Those imposed by work (w), and those imposed by idleness (i). If we assume people are utility maximizers, then they will choose whichever value is lower. Those Karl posits as “lazy and stupid” choose i because they have access to an unusually bad w bundle. Those Karl posits as “selfish” choose i because they have access to an unusually low i bundle. Both types will respond more or less the same way to incentives, but one group has a disadvantage compared to the average person, and the other has an advantage.
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 11:05 am
reason
Very well put – clearer than what Karl said.
I never quite understand why Libertarians are so keen on forcing poor workers to work. Nobody will want them as employees or as colleagues – so what exactly is the point?
There is a potential argument with respect to inertia that makes sense (the equivalent of the boot camps for juvenile offenders). But it relies on active policy, not passively relying on incentives.
This is the key point – “I don’t know any moral reason why the talented deserve to prosper and the untalented to fail and so the leveling-of-the-playing-field is of purely instrumental importance. It matters if it makes a more productive society or increases personal fulfillment, but it is not a moral cause unto itself.” Even Hayek was careful to warn about drawing moral conclusions from market prices.
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 3:16 pm
tjic (@tjic)
@reason:
> I never quite understand why Libertarians are so keen on forcing poor workers to work.
As a fairly extreme Libertarian myself, I have no desire to force the poor to work. I merely suggest that no force should be used to compel others to support them.
This will likely LEAD to the poor working, but it might not. It’s none of my business if charity X wants to give money to poor person Y, whom I perceive as undeserving. Conversely, I may choose to support charity P which supports poor person Q, whom others see as undeserving.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
abc123
It’s an interesting take on it, but I think the critical flaw in your argument is how immutable (or not) various traits are. Medical technology is not at the point of being able to regrow limbs, so an amputee will never have full mobility in the same way that a non-amputee has. However, even formerly debilitating (or deadly) diseases like AIDS and diabetes have been vastly mitigated by technology. Similarly, while you posit that sloth is a disease of the mind, it seems like something that can be changed through a variety of enticements.
Furthermore, the ability to change a given characteristic changes, in my opinion at least, with how abstract it is. Your eventual height is pretty much set by age eight, while your views on neo-Keynesian liquidity traps can continue to evolve into your eighties. In that light, I don’t see why one’s attitude towards work cannot be changed.
In other words, the defining feature of the human mind is its ability to change and adapt, and the less something is the result of physical manifestation, the more it should be able to be influenced by environmental and other factors.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 2:26 pm
Ken S
Changing and detecting attributes are somewhat separate issues though, Karl’s viewpoint has the most weight if we ever find ourselves able to detect laziness that is justified but we still can’t do much about the actual behavior. We have no good reason to exclude this possibility right now. Also, what interventions are justified to change behavior is a moral question all by itself.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 5:06 pm
abc123
I suppose, but when would you ever have justified laziness? We want to discourage laziness if at all possible, if only for efficiency reasons.
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 11:08 am
reason
Replying to abc123
We want to discourage laziness IN the workforce, for efficiency reasons. Or do you want to be ordered about on the beach?
And sometimes (as Karl pointed out) laziness IS efficient. Efficiency is a dreadful word. If economists stopped using it and found preciser alternatives, I’m sure there would be less sloppy thinking.
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 1:33 pm
abc123
Reply to reason.
I don’t mean efficiency in the sense of higher productivity per hour of labor, but rather in the sense that as few people as possible should be a net drag on society as a whole. I have no problem with people living on the beach, if they want, which is economically inefficient compared to making them work, but I do have a problem with their life on the beach being supported by my labor. Obviously, it is hard to find the exact point at which this is true, but I would rather err on the side of making people work, rather than subsidizing them.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 5:07 am
reason
Reply to abc…
Either some people will be a net drag, or you will have to kill (or at least let die) all the disabled, and inpecunious children and aged. Why aren’ t the “mosly useless” a similar category?
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
abc123
In reply to reason.
Some people will be a net drag, certainly. However, to minimize the effect on other people, we should try to reduce that number as much as humanely, rather than humanly, possible. Take, for instance, disability payments. If you’re injured 80%, you get a full ride, basically, because you’re crippled. However, if you’re 20% injured, you get nothing, because you’re close enough to a fully functional person that you don’t need a long term payment stream, and in between you get some assistance, but not total assistance. I think that the lazy are generally more towards the 20% injured end of the spectrum, and should work, even if it is slightly unfair.
As far as the crippled and “mostly useless”, they aren’t necessarily as useless as they may see themselves. Consider Oscar Pistorius, the amputee/sprinter. While he obviously has a lot of help that is not normally available to people, he also shows that the “mostly useless” can still perform at a world class level. With mental issues, it is a bit more difficult to deal with, because the diagnostics are not as sound, and there are a lot more errors, but I think the same principle applies.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 12:51 pm
Th
How deserving were the financial institutions that made bad, highly leveraged bets of a taxpayer funded bail-out? Are we better off today because they got a bail-out – deserved or not? Did the homeowners who bought houses they could not afford under the terms of their mortgages deserve a taxpayer funded bail-out as much as the mortgage issuers? Would we be better off if they had gotten a bail-out? How deserving are the WalMart heirs of their billions? Are we better off because they received money they did nothing to earn other than have the right parents?
Sound economic policy and “deserving” are separate issues. I wish you had debated whether the US will have a stronger economy if we pursue policies to reduce poverty.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
Ritwik
Very interesting. Agree with most of it. Your theory is consistent (though conclusions quite different) with, say, Rothbard who used to oppose the inheritance tax on grounds that there is no sense of the self that is not inherited.
But if I had to counter, I would begin by taking issue with this : ” I don’t know any moral reason why the talented deserve to prosper and the untalented to fail and so the leveling-of-the-playing-field is of purely instrumental importance. ” I would invoke Mill’s counter of the Humean is-ought problem : It ought to be this way if it can’t be any other way. Modify using suitably probabilistic reasoning.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 2:19 pm
Bill Pearson
You make a very central assumption that “laziness” has a major role to play in economic success/poverty. While that is certainly politically popular, it is not clear that it is well supported by the data. I suspect that parents income and social class are far more important. One wonders whether “laziness” (if it can even be measured) and poverty are tied closely in societies/countries that have more economic mobility or less class hetergeneity.
And, if “laziness” cannot be estimated independently of economic success, it’s not a very useful concept when thinking about policies that increase the greater good.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 2:58 pm
Rick Russell
> You make a very central assumption that “laziness” has a major role to play in economic success/poverty.
No, he’s asking us to agree that “laziness” is the least sympathetic reason that someone might be poor. If we agree that poverty due to laziness needs to be addressed/ameliorated, then presumably we agree that poverty due to everything else needs to be addressed/ameliorated as well.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 3:40 pm
Curt Doolittle
It’s IQ, parents and income. In fact, it pretty much looks like it’s just IQ, if we look across more than one generation.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
Barton
I might add that the notion of free will is under assault from the hammerblows of neuroscience. The more we learn, the less of it there seems to be. So I’d argue even further that it makes little sense to not have sympathy for nearly any decision, as that is the intellectually honest, scientific position.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Curt Doolittle
1) What can the poor give in exchange for money? If you change the debate from gift to exchange, it is politically tenable. If you do not WANT to change it from gift to exchange it isn’t in any way ETHICAL. EThical has no meaning outside of exchange. It CANT.
2) What can the poor do to reduce the impact of their laziness and stupidity on the people who aren’t lazy and stupid? Answer: They can stop breeding. Western IQ increased due to Manorialism. It wasn’t an accident. It was a consequence.
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 10:58 am
reason
“EThical has no meaning outside of exchange. It CANT.”
What? So killing your own baby if you don’t like it is OK?
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 11:14 am
reason
So I take it Curt, your policy is test at 10 and 11, then sterilise at 12. Cut off 115 or so?
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 4:07 pm
Natural lotteries and the deserving poor « Blunt Object
[...] The deserving poor (Modeled Behavior) [...]
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Lord
One can have sympathy for both and consider them both deserving, but have very different approaches to express that sympathy. Give money to the blind. Give work opportunity to lazy. Give in kind to the need. They may not be able to hold a job but could still be paid for what they can do however long they can do it. More pragmatism.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 8:04 pm
nemi
Touchdown!.
Tuesday ~ February 7th, 2012 at 8:11 pm
nemi
PS: I think your full argument was, beautifully, laid out in the post.
Still – I want more.
Gimme, gimme, gimme!
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 7:38 am
spandrell
this is what hbd does to smart people: makes them talk sense.
Great post, should be given wide publicity.
Everything bad in our society comes from trying to hard to change what can’t be changed.
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 9:00 am
From Civics to Morals « Gucci Little Piggy
[...] deserving are the poor?” Insofar as providing desert to the poor is a policy issue, Smith argues: My thesis may be best understood this [...]
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 10:15 am
TheMoneyIllusion » Just deserts
[...] Karl Smith has an excellent post on why he doesn’t buy the standard view of just deserts: Why does this matter: Well on one level I simply appeal to the aesthetic. We try to understand our world and our intuitions about it in a consistent way because doing so is beautiful. [...]
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 10:26 am
Brock
I’m not particularly qualified to assess your contributions to economics, Prof. Smith, but I am qualified to say this: You would have been a very good philosopher.
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 10:51 am
Exasperated
(Caution: Rant. Here there be monsters.)
As the noted Western philosopher W. Munny once observed, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.”
However, be that as it may. Let’s discuss the ramifications of this theory. Lazy/stupid people were born lazy, will always be lazy, and short of genetic manipulation which we don’t have the technology to perform even if we found it ethical, there is nothing we can do about it. Providing them work opportunity, as suggested by a prior poster, will not help, because the problem isn’t lack of opportunity, it’s lack of the ability to capitalize on opportunity.
Now what?
This is a reframing of what Mencius Moldbug, noted non-militant Reactionary, refers to as “The Dire Problem.” (See: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/11/dire-problem-and-virtual-option.html ) We have a large and growing population of people who won’t, and for purposes of this discussion we’ll assume that they won’t because they can’t, not because of any moral shortcoming, support themselves. Left to their own devices, they are likely to cause harm to themselves or others, if for no other reason that the corpses of people who die of starvation are a public health hazard. Also, they smell bad. (The corpses, that is. Even most lazy and stupid people can be taught to bathe.) A dire problem, indeed. What to do?
Well, M. Moldbug has a few suggestions, which you should go and read, if for no other reason than it will shock you and a little shock now and then is good for us. (Here’s the first one, which even he raises only to reject: “Biodiesel.”) But while I doubt any of his actual plans will be implemented, he raises a point which is difficult to refute: it is not fair, and much more importantly it is not workable, for a person to claim on the one hand that their welfare is the responsibility of another but that they themselves are *not* responsible to that other. I have authority over my children which I am not allowed to exercise over other people’s children, let alone other adults, because my children are my responsibility. I am responsible *for* them, so they are responsible *to* me.
The question then arises: why is it any different because the child reaches a certain age, if at that age the relationship is unchanged? If my thirty-something comes home to live in my basement, legally I don’t have to let him in, but if I do, I don’t think most people would say it was unreasonable for me to require them to behave in certain ways. And indeed we see that there are few things more tragic, or more likely to cause misery and unhappiness between those who should love one another, than an adult child who leeches off their aged parent but offers them no respect in return.
So. The poor may be “deserving.” But what is it that they deserve? The fruits of our technological society, which produces a gracious plenty of food and other human needs, and which could support all of us in some minimal level of decency and comfort? Very well. Nothing in this world is free. Even if the fruit of the wild tree which belongs to everyone or no one is ripe and ready, you must go and pick it. If you demand of another that they go and do so, and bring it to you, then you must repay that demand in one coin or another. Otherwise, they will either fail to do so, when your demand grows too burdensome, or the supply of fruit itself will fail.
Let me tone down the flowery analogy and get a bit more direct: If you depend upon me for the very needs of life, you are putting your life in my hands. It belongs to me, one way or another. I can be a good steward, or I can be a poor one. But I am not *taking* anything from you. You *gave* it to me. If you gave it to me because you can’t take care of it yourself, that does not change the fact that I didn’t take it, and I didn’t ask for it. At least my actual child can claim that I brought them into existence without their permission, and therefore I should bear some responsibility for them. My virtual children, those whose welfare I maintain for no other reason than that I am required to, can’t even say that.
The governments of the west, lo these many years since Bismarck’s folly first manifest, have become increasingly poor stewards. The herd may have increased manyfold, but the fodder supply grows perilous thin. Not literally, not yet – we still have plenty of food to go around, and I for one am shamed and bitter that people who want to work can go hungry in this age of wonders. But the money runs low, the systems grow sclerotic and random. Throwing money at the poor will not fix the problem: throwing money at the poor, and demanding nothing in return, IS the problem. It’s the exact equivalent of feeding your child nothing but chocolate bars on demand, never requiring them to go to bed or do their homework or even pay you minimal respect, and then complaining because they’re hideous brats who won’t eat decent food and assault their grandmothers at Wal-Mart. Latarian Milton (see: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/latarian-milton ) is the face of the problem, in other words, and whether he had any say in what the world made him or not, the world still has to deal with him. Leaving him to his own devices while maintaining his existence unconditionally is not a rational approach.
In the end, somebody is going to have to deal with Laterian. We can deal with him by sticking him in a cage and making him even more antisocial, releasing him from time to time until he forces us to put him back in the cage, or we can take a more civilized approach. We can acknowledge that he is, in the end, the responsibility of others, and therefore he is responsible to them. In other words, he is somebody’s ward and probably always will be. Since time immemorial, it has been understood that a ward was responsible to their patron. Few people challenge this even today. The only problem is that nobody wants to acknowledge that the wards of the State are the wards of the State.
If he demonstrates that he is capable of supporting himself, well and good. If not, and we are required to maintain his life, his life belongs to us. To the State, or whatever entity is devoted to its upkeep. What we do with it is a separate question: we don’t need chain gangs any more, and forcing him onto one, when his condition is no fault of his own, seems rather vindictive and more than a little petty. But it is cheaper, easier, and far more humane to impose reasonable restrictions on him at an early stage, and maintain them consistently unless and until he demonstrates that they are not necessary, than to just randomly feed him into the criminal justice system because he’s reached some arbitrary age, and then let him bounce around in and out of it like a pinball. If we claim responsibility, then let us take responsibility. Otherwise we are wasting our time and can only, and will inevitably, just make things worse.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 1:56 am
Rick Russell
That is not only a fantastic summary of the problem, but I think you very deftly captured the concept of “ethical exchange” hinted at by Mr. Dolittle above.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 5:26 am
reason
Yes,
that is exactly how ugly it is. This all reminds of the discussion on Naked Capitalism of the ideas of Hans-Hermann Hoppe (Journey into a Libertarian Future).
Friday ~ February 10th, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Sister Y
Some of us get so little positive utility from doing anything (socially beneficial) that the only way to make us do something is by imposing a high level of extra disutility on us if we don’t do it (negative reinforcement).
Since exactly 0% of us asked to be here, the sad people of the world have a point when they ask: what makes it okay for the happy people of the world to force us to suffer so they can enjoy the game we didn’t ask to play?
I don’t think “go jump off a building” is an appropriate response, but comfortable suicide assistance in some form, along with questioning our distaste for birth disincentives, are on the table as far as I’m concerned.
Friday ~ February 10th, 2012 at 5:29 pm
Exasperated
Sister Y:
I think that you and I have similar outlooks, but I would like to address this:
“Since exactly 0% of us asked to be here, the sad people of the world have a point when they ask: what makes it okay for the happy people of the world to force us to suffer so they can enjoy the game we didn’t ask to play?”
While I see what you mean, I think, this could be read as substituting “happy people” as “people who are happy to work” and “sad people” as “people who are sad to work.” If that were the case, and this were applied to the argument generally under discussion, it would be exactly backwards. The sad people don’t want to work: it makes them sad. They want the happy people to work and make it possible for them not to work. In that case, it’s the happy people who didn’t ask to be forced to do anything.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 5:17 am
reason
I’m not quite understanding this argument. Are you arguing for slavery?
(P.S. Can you document that it is in fact “have a large and growing population of people who won’t…” – especially the growing part. I don’t think that is necessarily true – moral panicks are a constant human theme.)
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 10:51 am
Rick Russell
I have a hard time understanding how one concludes that demanding behavioral concessions in kind to the nature of one’s disability in return for the wealth necessary for comfort (food, shelter, and clothing, etc) is equivalent to “slavery”.
All of us concede some control over our lives in return for wealth and comfort — for those of us who can work and make those decisions, we call them “jobs”.
The alternatives to “working for welfare” or “taking classes for welfare” or “exercising appropriate behavior for welfare” are not the whip, nor the firing squad. Nobody is proposing to chase lazy people down from horseback or pack them into ships and sell them. The alternatives to behavioral concessions in return for welfare are indigency, discomfort, illness, crime and imprisonment.
Karl’s whole point — and an accurate one, I think — is that the putative worst-case welfare recipients who simply can’t or won’t work for some reason other than measurable organic disability really do deserve better than a welfare check. They need a solution that is aligned to their problems. If they can’t show up to a government job because they’re spending all their money on booze or horse races, then stop paying them with money. Pay them with a clean dormitory room for their family, decent day care for their kids, some classes and 3 hot meals per day
Rewarding work isn’t a punishment. It’s a human right. Look at the Scandinavian “flexicurity” model; if you’re giving people checks when they are between jobs and you’re NOT providing training, then you’re squandering their time. I think it’s a good concept.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 12:55 pm
reason
Rick Russel – I wasn’t asking you, I was asking “exasperated”. I think he is implying some sort of vasselism for the chronically lazy. I have no problem with your ideas.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 4:04 pm
Exasperated
That would depend on your definition of “slavery.” I guess it would make sense to rephrase my argument as being that requiring people to be responsible for others who are not responsible to them, and who did not ask to be made subservient to their needs, is a form of slavery, and therefore wrong, yes.
However, I am fairly sure that that is not what you meant, and you are simply injecting the word “slavery” into the argument to make me look evil. Very well. I am evil. I admit it freely.
Now that we’ve established that, are you saying that because I am evil, any argument I make is per se invalid and may safely be disregarded? If not, please point out the error in my argument. If so, please explain what the non-evil solution to the problem is, or explain why it is not really a problem.
Any proposed solution which is equivalent to “what we do now, only more of it” will be met with a very, very evil laugh. Trust me, you don’t want to hear my evil laugh. It’s been known to make children cry and women faint.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 4:09 pm
Exasperated
Incidentally, while “large” is a subjective judgment, if you’ll tell me what you would consider large, I’ll either show that the threshold is met, explain why I think your threshold is too high, or concede that you’re right. “Growing” is not arguable in my opinion: the population continues to grow. Therefore it is logically unescapable that if some fraction of the population is unable to support themselves, the number of people who are unable to support themselves must also be growing. This doesn’t even factor in that technology continuously raises the requirements for someone to be a net social asset absent purposeful adjustment of the economy to prevent it from happening.
Not that that latter is necessarily incompatible with a civilized society: making the no-self serve gas laws universal and requiring that surface streets be paved with bricks instead of asphalt would doubtless be steps backwards in pure efficiency, which is why we don’t do them, but maximizing efficiency isn’t mandated by God
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 8:55 am
Tom
Great reply to an important issue about “deserving” — because it’s rooted in the second most important economic truth:
2) Incentives matter.
In practice, the better we treat the born-lazy, the more incentive there is for “born nearly-lazy” to claim all those benefits. And an ever increasingly number of folk to claim the benefits.
“Wards of the Government” is what the “poor” should become, and the government should become a more responsible parent-substitute.
There should be a “national service”, designed for lazy people, which gives a minimally civilized life for the most lazy, with incentives to get better material thru more work.
Further, the blind analogy is poor — because laziness is a scale. A blind-in-one eye person is not half-blind, he is not blind at all, he can see. Less well, but he is a sighted person.
Better would be a 98-lb weakling, born with weak muscles. Everybody can get better muscles thru more exercise. Unequally better despite the same exercise, but those who exercise certainly do get better muscles.
Work laziness is much more like muscle laziness, and the best cure/ ameliorating treatment is … more work. National service.
Friday ~ February 10th, 2012 at 5:25 am
reason
OK,
let’s be clear about this. We presently have a lot of people who are involuntarily unemployed. Most of these people aren’t naturally indigent people. But any rules we make will be universal. It is all right speculating vaguely that we should reduce the freedom of people who refuse to co-operate, but we live in a world of uncertainty and a world governed by the rule of law (including an individual right to be treated wth dignity). I’m all for the idea that rights must come with responsibilities (and no more so than in the case of property rights), but this issue is not easy, and perhaps the way we treat this tradeoff should not be decided based on a priori reasoning, but treated as an empirical “what works best” in the sense of giving the best cost/benefit result. I’m all for treating incentives seriously (especially avoiding poverty traps), but I think moral hazard fetishism sometimes has a very low return. Given the chance, I believe most people will chose a chance of some material progress over guaranteed poverty.
Friday ~ February 10th, 2012 at 10:14 am
Exasperated
Reply to reason:
I think you have failed to grasp my evilness. (I can’t speak to Tom’s evilness.) I don’t CARE why you are indigent. This is not vague speculation on my part. I honestly believe that if you rely on someone else for your very subsistence, then it is logical, ethical, moral, right, good, true, and virtuous* for society to enforce a responsibility to that person on your part in exchange for the responsibility they have *for* you. I think we should implement such a societal regime as soon as is reasonably practical. Period, full stop.
The deeper and more fundamental the reliance, the deeper and more fundamental the responsibility. For instance, if I simply ask that you pay me an agreed wage for performing agreed labor, we still have responsibility both ways. You are responsible to me for providing working conditions as mandated by law and as agreed by us, and for paying me as we agreed. I am responsible to you for doing my work as we agreed, and not damaging you while doing so. Those responsibilities, both ways, are a lot more serious than most people suppose.
As to your other point, we already HAVE an empirical system for people who are simply temporarily indigent due to short-term unemployment. It’s called savings and unemployment insurance. After that, if you levy demands on others, you must be prepared to offer up something in return. What you should be required to offer up should be in direct proportion to what you are demanding. To answer a question that was priorly asked of me, I don’t believe in slavery, I believe in freedom. But if you are not free to starve, then you are not free.
*In geek terms, I am what you might call “lawful evil.” It’s entirely possible to be evil, especially in the eyes of a neutral or chaotic good perso,n which most Progressives are, and still believe firmly in the virtues of order, peace, and the sanctity of contract.
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 2:02 pm
RickG
I would like a firmer definition of the “genuinely lazy” and the “faking lazy” that helps me distinguish between them for moral purposes, assuming they could be identified. I see both as “gets a lot of disutility from work”. Is the difference that the “faking lazy” respond to incentives, e.g. gun to the head, whereas the “genuinely lazy” do not?
How strong does the incentive need to be? Is there a continuum, defined by the strength of the incentive required to induce work? If both experience the same disutility from working, then morally we shouldn’t care which of them is actually forced to work. Practically we care, because the genuinely lazy will probably still fail to work, and suffer, while the faking lazy will succeed, and suffer, but at least the latter adds to economy.
So do we set the incentive to the level where the marginal gains to the economy from pulling an additional faking lazy person into work are balanced by the marginal suffering from imposing a more brutal state of idleness on the genuinely lazy?
Wednesday ~ February 8th, 2012 at 10:06 pm
Asher
Blindness is rarely genetic. There is probably a significant genetic component to laziness. Also, it seems reasonable that blindness is much more strongly correlated, inversely, to obtaining sex than is laziness. Frankly, if you subsidize laziness the lazy are most likely to run around screwing all day. So, I work hard so other people get to have sex …
wait a second …
I’m lazy, too …
You get to work hard so I can run around screwing all day.
To abbreviate further discussion I propose we replace the phrase “lazy people” with “tribbles”.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 2:27 am
Greg
Yes. Mercy triumphs over judgement.
Of course, what you owe / what is good for the lazy is an entirely separate discussion.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
dumky2
You rightly bring up the subjectivity of value.
But doesn’t that make your case for deserving poor weaker?
If you value playing Skyrim more than working to ensure you have food and shelter in your old age, who am I to say that my preference or utility scale is superior to yours? If you appear poor to me, wouldn’t I appear poor to you? Then what is poverty?
Is laziness a disability, or is hardwork preferences a disability?
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 2:29 pm
Craig
A key difference between the “blind-sighted” and “lazy-industrious” divisions is that we regard blindness as an unqualified negative. It is unquestionably better in nearly every regard to have sight than to be blind (maybe the blind have a bit better hearing? but this is pretty scant compensation).
Therefore, most of us think it reasonable and just to provide assistance to the blind–we see them as having suffered through no fault of their own.
With the lazy, the situation is much less clear. Like an economist, Karl looks first to how many goods and services the lazy are able to consume versus the industrious. But this does not tell enough of the story: the lazy, through working less, devote far more of their time to leisure than do the industrious. To say that, on top of this leasure time, the industrious should give the lazy more goods and services is to say that the lazy should have their cake and eat it, too.
A world of Rawlsian justice would be perfectly comfortable with the lazy working ten hours a week while the industrious work fifty and enjoy a much higer material standard of living–each group is getting what it values most.
For this reason, it is not clear how much we should regard “laziness” as a compensable disability–or any kind of disability at all. The lazy simply have different utility functions. And that is their right.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 6:36 pm
Matt
I have the suspicion that I’m misunderstanding the premise here… couldn’t one argue that laziness is a character flaw and that we punish people for the consequences of their character flaws all the time?
What of empathy-lacking killers that get thrown in jail for the rest of their natural lives? Should we be sympathetic to them because they didn’t *choose* to be born sociopathic?
Friday ~ February 10th, 2012 at 10:19 am
Exasperated
I suspect that you are misunderstanding the premise, yes.
As an analogy: would you argue that having Down’s Syndrome is a character flaw? I would hope not.
The basic premise here is that some subset, possibly quite a large one, of the chronically underemployed/unemployed/poor has a genetic condition, as real, as basic, and as untreatable as Down’s Syndrome, which makes it impossible for them to rise up above a certain level of employment/socioeconomic status/class/subsistence/whatever. We can throw education, networking, training, and opportunity at them ALL DAY LONG and, through no fault (or character flaw) of their own, they will simply not be able to capitalize on these things. The question, indeed the Dire Problem, is, what do we do about them?
Friday ~ February 10th, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Greg
This has gotten way adrift. There is a small subset of folks out there whose innate skills are so limited that they can’t very well take care of themselves. But to extend this conversation about the poor and/or lazy generally brings us into the territory where liberalism’s compassion turns on itself and becomes unbearably patronizing and disrespectful to those it otherwise endeavors to help. To say the attitudes and habits of the poor as as immutable as down syndrome, and that they need our sustenance due to these characteristics, is condescension of the highest order.
More importantly, it’s factually absurd. Show me a homeless person who doesn’t have to be and I’ll show you someone with mental illness and who’s part of the small subset referenced above. Take a step back from there, to folks with homes and food but electing not to engage more fully in the workforce, and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t appreciate the value of work to him or herself and/or who simply makes a conscious choice of preferring society’s sustenance to the self-sustenance he or she thinks is available. Show me someone else, whose disengagement from the workforce is less clearly an election, and I’ll show you someone probably experiencing the factors above combined with lack of access to a good, self-respecting job.
Those examples don’t cover the full set, but they cover most of it, and in no case do the choices have to do with a genetic predisposition to disliking work.
Incidentally, none of this has to do with whether compassion and/or help is to be extended or not. Compassion is warranted to everyone described above. Regarding help, we should be very concerned about and focused on lower incomes folks having access to good jobs. We should have a safety net. And we should provide work and life training opportunities to those who need it. But what has to be built into that ecosystem, for the poor themselves and our society, is the idea that at some point people have to be pushed out of the nest, and we absolutely must reject the idea that people who are still in the nest must be there because they’re incapable of flying. Oy.
Friday ~ February 10th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Exasperated
To Greg:
“Take a step back from there, to folks with homes and food but electing not to engage more fully in the workforce, and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t appreciate the value of work to him or herself and/or who simply makes a conscious choice of preferring society’s sustenance to the self-sustenance he or she thinks is available.”
That is an *assumption* on your part. The whole premise of the article we are Amusing ourselves about is that that may not be true. It’s far closer to Scott Adams’ “moist robots” theory of behavior than to any kind of moralizing. If you believe it, your comments on this article should all read “The premise of the underlying article is bushwah, and therefore your argument is invalid.” The bunny with the pancake on its head is optional.
Friday ~ February 10th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
Greg
Yeah I get the framework. I apologize for moralizing if your point about down syndrome was merely to illustrate the post’s premise. Not sure how the real world implications of the competing premises are a bunny.
Thursday ~ February 9th, 2012 at 11:30 pm
Wonks Anonymous
I finally watched the debate. You seemed to be moving around a lot (though the vimeo video seemed to cut it off around the 41 minute mark). Was it cold in the room, or do you just have a lot of nervous energy?
Saturday ~ February 11th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Links 2/11/12 | Mike the Mad Biologist
[...] Economists Contributed to the Financial Crisis (must-read) The Deserving Poor Their So-Called Journalism, or What I Saw at the Women’s Mags (this, of course, doesn’t [...]
Saturday ~ February 11th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
Is There Such a Thing as Moral Failure?
[...] Karl Smith has a post that’s relevant to a discussion we’ve been having here: We can talk about the relative influence of genes, prenatal care, nutrition, early childhood education, lead, etc. However, I didn’t think they would dispute that your IQ is determined before what most people would think of as your moral agency. If so, can it reasonably be your fault that you are stupid? [...]
Saturday ~ February 11th, 2012 at 9:27 pm
Michael Fisher
Within the foundations of your argument lurks a notion that people are some form of dualistic being. There is the physical body (including brain) which just happens to be born lazy, and there is the “real” person who doesn’t “deserve” to have been born that way.
That fallacy needs to be rooted out. It’s fooling your intuition. The person as physically constructed is the entire person. There is no-one trapped inside, unfortunate enough to have been placed inside that shell. Find that assumption and kill it, and I think your thought will start to follow very different tracks.
Saturday ~ February 11th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
Michael Fisher
Once you accept that people are made out of physical stuff, and that there is nobody lurking inside, notions like desert seem silly. What one should really ask oneself is whether there is something that can be done to change the expected outcomes. So, yes, sometimes it is best to harangue someone to get them to change their behavior. A rational actor assumption is silly. Sometimes it is best to accept that changing their behavior would be very hard, and not worth it overall.
Talking about what is deserved, moral, or fair in some objective sense is silly. There is only what agreements we make amongst ourselves.
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 3:13 pm
Karl Smith
Yeah, so I am certainly not that kind of a dualist. I tend to think of myself as an anomalous monist but I am open on the issue.
In any case, I at least have a consciousness and I care about that and the possibility of other consciousnesses, especially human ones.
That ethics is aesthetics, I readily admit. However, it is beautiful to be clear in one notions of the good.
Lastly, I am not sure that the sentence
“Talking about what is deserved, moral or fair in some objective sense is silly” , itself makes sense.
For what does it mean to be silly other than to “deserve ridicule”
Sunday ~ February 12th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Mike Fisher
I intended silly to mean “nonproductive in any rational sense.” When I use a word like “silly,” I am attempting to use a word that connotes lack desirability to the actor without any invocation of universal/objective standards. Alas, language is imprecise and laden with coercive connotations. And I’m human, and so fail in subtle and not-so-subtle ways all the time.
We have many words and phrases which strongly connote some version of “the universe (dis)approves of this.” So the use of words like “good,” “moral,” etc. are either sloppy constructs or attempts to use allegedly universal/objective moral standards to subtly coerce agreement. Largely it seems we use language to coerce more than we do to pass information.
Saturday ~ February 18th, 2012 at 6:28 pm
Revisiting My Socialist Root: How About Guaranteed Basic Income To All? « Yapping Yak
[...] To realize these two goals, we can use 1) positive taxation, where government ask people for money, or 2) negative taxation, meaning the government gives money out to “deserving” people. (there is an interesting article on whether lazy people deserve our money, at here) [...]
Wednesday ~ March 14th, 2012 at 2:48 pm
Differences are Not Deficiencies « Mental Health Food
[...] The Deserving Poor (modeledbehavior.com) [...]