James Wimberley nominates one my posts as the dumbest of 2011.
Read the whole thing as a fine example of yahoo values, data-free scaremongering and reckless optimism, and an indifference to economic reasoning.
Whether my values are yahoo or not I cannot say. I wasn’t aware of any scaremongering on my part, and certainly not of the data-free kind.
I am tickled, and at this point intrigued, by the repeated references to my position as optimistic, reckless or otherwise. My general philosophical disposition is black-on-black existential nihilism, which most people take and I accept to be a sternly pessimistic disposition.
Lastly, of all things one might say about my positions, that they are indifferent to economic reasoning is among the least likely to be true.
Wimberley continues
It´s very likely to Smith that humans will stop needing food, transport, consumer durables, heating and cooling, and shelter because of an unspecified information singularity, as in Charles Stross´ SF romp Accelerando. On the other hand, the risk of population losses on a genocidal scale as a result of well understood and carefully modelled climatic processes can be ignored.
I have not read Accelerando, so I don’t know exactly what Wimberley is referring to but I certainly don’t think that humans will stop needing any of those things. The issue, of course, is the cost of production.
The second paragraph at least reflects an actual argument. Future generations will very probably be richer and better able than us to afford the costs of adaptation and mitigation. However, this depends on how much. Faced with a trend in damage and adaptation costs rising to infinity, there is some point at which we should spend the money to mitigate. The equilibrium depends on the cost curves and the discount rate. You need a model to work it all out and infer whether the date is in the future (Nordhaus) or has already passed (Stern).
A few things. First, damages and adaptation and mitigation costs refer to real things. For reasons alluded to in previous posts I am an infinite set skeptic. That is, I am doubtful that real things can take on infinite values. Yet, let’s set that aside for now.
Its simply not the case that if trend damages and adaptation costs rise to infinity that there is some point at which you should mitigate. Suppose that we simply mean that damages grow without bound. If mitigation costs grow without bound but faster then it will never be worth your while.
Suppose that we mean there is a vertical asymptote such that damages take on an infinite value in finite time. Then if mitigation costs start higher, grow faster and there is vertical asymptote of mitigation costs which occurs before the damages asymptote then there does not exist a time T such that damages > mitigation costs.
All of that being said, Wimberely is correct that the key question is what are in fact the damages, adaptation and mitigation costs. This is the conversation that I want to have.
Amazingly, there have actually been attempts by economists to think about this: Stern, Quiggin (eg here), Weitzman, Nordhaus. Professor Smith is a professional economist. It´s very curious that he does not think it worthwhile to use the tools of economic analysis to address the most important question of public policy of our generation.
For example, one key issue in the debate. The use of high rates of time preference, rather than Stern´s and Quiggin´s near-zero, leads to discount rates of 5% or so. These imply a morally unacceptable indifference to the fate of our grandchildren, many of whom will still be alive in 2100 – their incomes and costs valued today at 1.04c on the dollar if we accept 5%.
I find it very worthwhile to use economic analysis though I don’t always write in economic language. My main point is that we are overestimating the costs of adaptation, but underneath it all is an assumption of a relatively high rate of time preference.
The fundamental logic being that irrespective of how we think we ought to treat our grandchildren, we do not in fact treat them as if their future happiness is worth that much to us.
In the late 90s the US Treasury was selling I-Bonds for real 3.4% return. Before the Global Financial Crisis long term TIPS were trading at roughly 2.25%. Yet, these products weren’t hit with trillions of dollars in demand as grandparents recognized the ability to establish large guaranteed gifts to their grandchildren.
Even more directly New York Life is currently offering a 5% inflation protected annuity specially marketed towards grandparents.
The later example is especially illuminating because New York Life is in the business of convincing you to do this. Rationality issues might cloud your decision to buy I-Bonds, but if it was possible to frame the issue in such a way to get you to invest in your grandchildren’s future the New York Life has an interest in finding that way and exploiting it. Yet, they have not succeeded on a mass scale.
A form of reasoning that allows an avoidable catastrophe is unsound, however much it´s embedded in human nature. The duty of scholars is to fight our cognitive illusions, not to parrot them.
I agree that scholars should work to fight our cognitive illusions but I would count the first sentence above among them. Given any event chain that we can lay out there are all sorts bad things that can happen. Whatever path you choose lowers the probability of some catastrophes and raises the probability of others.
Simply saying that we should restrict ourselves to some subset of event chains because a particular catastrophe takes on probability zero within that subset is not sensible.
You might want to argue that we should lower the probability of all potential catastrophes. Though, I doubt that is a position people would actually want to take if faced with the option.

7 comments
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Sunday ~ January 1st, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Curt Doolittle
Argh.
Karl, thats just a grand and polysyllabic way of saying that you don’t place as high a value on future risk, or feel an deep an obligation to reward prior forgone consumption as conservatives do. You think consumption is the decision criteria for everything. Conservatives think production is decision criteria for everything.
Given that the greatest risk to the citizens of any country is revolution, and that the anglo american method of creating opportunity for meritocratic inclusion into the system of property rights is the most enduring and revolution avoiding system of government we’ve yet found, then it’s kind of fascinating that you take both that system for granted – even spuriously – take risks for granted. Especially when they are risks that you don’t pay for and have little invested in like those of the rest of us who daily pay for our longer time preferences with forgone opportunities for self satisfaction and consumption.
Time preference is a product of social class. Lower classes have a higher (shorter) time preference and higher classes have a lower (longer) time preference. And in every column you confuse a claim for truth with your class preference. When in fact you’re just attempting to take a profit using an unearned discount.
And it is convenient that you use a methodology that by intent or design obscures the transfers from those with lower time preference to those with higher time preference, without any form of compensation. And especially when that compensation would require defense of the successful political system, and the prosperity that has come from it’s durability.
You ignore the fact that those with longer time preferences have not forgone consumption and pleasure in order to concentrate enough wealth to be able to afford even greater consumption of more complex and expensive goods, or to afford to pass to their children or extended families the results of their labors. Wealthier people work harder. They work harder at school. They work harder and longer at work. They work harder and longer at keeping a stable marriage. Entrepreneurs take vicious risks, work harder and longer and forgo lots of income in the early stages and take lucky balloon payments at the end, years later.
You think it is perfectly acceptable for people without means to produce children at the cost of others and thereby decrease the ability to consume, or to save for future consumption, by those who they say ‘owe’ them consideration – but are not expected to produce anything in return.
If we build a society that can tolerate risk, it will. If we build one that, according to your positivist fantasy (see Taleb) is low risk, you’re just inviting catastrophe and revolution, and eventually the poverty that comes from revolution.
This is why I’d have fun debating you.
You’re the best progressive blogger out there. You work with the data. And you’ve actually had original creative insight into the banking system. That’s why it’s worth reading you and commenting on your work. You’re also honest and you write well.
But you are impervious to the obvious reality that politics and economics are two sides of the same coin, and that a polity is necessary to create and maintain an economy – and that some of us are willing to fight to the last breath to preserve our polity and it’s investment in the future.
Which begs a question: If we owe nothing to the past why do we owe something to the future? Are obligations inter-temporal? In that bit of a riddle you would eventually find the truth of progressive philosophy.
Conservatives are the remnants of the aristocratic class system, who hold allegiance to the ‘fair game’ model of classical liberalism that is the remnant of aristocratic martial and political strategies that allowed a weak and minority culture on the edge of civilization to create the industrial revolution twice – aristocratic philosophy is not the result of random or irrelevant emotional beliefs. Its the result of two and a half millennia of trying to survive as the weak west against a despotic east. And all our railing against monarchy is silly french nonsense to justify the replacement of one tyrant with another that was worse.
Conservatives are socially martial, cognizant of being weak in numbers, and therefore hierarchical, possessed of low time preference, technologically curious in order to compensate for weakness, and capital concentrating. They seek exchange not transfer, and to perpetuate their values in compensation to those who created their culture for them. In the long term, this is the best economic strategy known to man. And no effort at treating short term aggregates as fundamental truths will change that. It’s like having a high school kid claim infinite wisdom having mastered his geometry.
You and Paul can toy with your postwar data all you want. It’s an insignificant blip for a culture that goes back a millenium or more and created almost everything worth having or doing in this world. Short term data is irrrelevant and we know it. Distribution isn’t the problem. Production of that which people will act to pursue is. People are capital. And our inventory is weakening.
Sunday ~ January 1st, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Curt Doolittle
OR put another way:
If all those people with \ long time preference, discipline and ability then determine that it is no longer possible to concentrate capital long term, to provide inheritances for their children, to preserve their culture for following generations, to build high art, what do you suppose they will spend their time, energy, thought, discipline, planning and coordinating on?
You see?
Sunday ~ January 1st, 2012 at 6:31 pm
teageegeepea
Curt, he is arguing with James Wimberley about climate change. Wimberley is not a conservative.
I’m confused by the remark about creating the industrial revolution “twice”.
Sunday ~ January 1st, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Lord
It is ironic that supposed conservatives actually rely on high discount rates when facing something they don’t want to face just so they don’t have to face it. Instead, they view attempting to deal with it as a threat to their current position, neglecting that not dealing with it is as much if not greater a threat to them. They are more intent that everyone else pay than they do and prefer the result of everyone worse off than themselves any worse off. This is sham conservatism that only gives lip service to “our children”.
Tuesday ~ January 3rd, 2012 at 2:30 pm
Avo
Your evidence that people don’t care all that much about their grandchildren is astonishingly weak. Many organizations and individuals invest to maximize return on a decades-long timescale; very few of them use 100% I-bonds, and none at all use gimmicky insurance policies with hidden fees.
Thursday ~ January 5th, 2012 at 2:44 am
B
“Simply saying that we should restrict ourselves to some subset of event chains because a particular catastrophe takes on probability zero within that subset is not sensible.”
Nice and succinct.
Sunday ~ March 18th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
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