Paul Krugman wades into debt fundamentals
People think of debt’s role in the economy as if it were the same as what debt means for an individual: there’s a lot of money you have to pay to someone else. But that’s all wrong; the debt we create is basically money we owe to ourselves, and the burden it imposes does not involve a real transfer of resources.
That’s not to say that high debt can’t cause problems — it certainly can. But these are problems of distribution and incentives, not the burden of debt as is commonly understood. And as Dean says, talking about leaving a burden to our children is especially nonsensical; what we are leaving behind is promises that some of our children will pay money to other children, which is a very different kettle of fish.
Just to keep each other honest. I am pretty sure I know what Paul means but the bolded line is not exactly true. Most likely there will be real resource transfer, just within the country not between countries. Such resource transfer is not frictionless, however.
This is easiest to see when the resources are transferred from taxpayers to bondholders . Even if these are the exact, exact same people the transfer itself involves taxation and thus deadweight loss. Whether it involves measurable loss of production is another issue, but its fairly clear that it involves deadweight loss.
More generally though I would like to encourage people to think of debt as promises.
One thing that I hope this can help us see is that there is no limit to the number of promises we can make between each other. I make a promise to you. You make a promise to me. Back and forth we go, and we just become ever more entwined with one another.
However, there is no real limit to how many promises we can make, thus there is no limit to how high debt levels can go.
The promises, that are our debt, allow us to co-ordinate our activities more tightly. If I know that you will be there for me when I need you I can take on certain tasks that I could not otherwise.
What’s dangerous about promises is that they may not be kept. When we depend on others and then others don’t come through for us we can be hurt. This is true in love, life and finance.
The more promises (debt) we have the more dependent we are on each other and the more it will hurt when one us – inevitably – doesn’t live up to those promises.
However, this alone is not a reason to fear a world of debt anymore than broken hearts are a reason to fear a world of love.
Now, in love and money people do shy away from commitment – explicit or otherwise. I think this is over done. You have to let other people make their choices. So long as you are upfront about what it is that you have to offer you should let your suitors fall in love with you if they wish and the bank loan you money if it wishes.
Their hearts and their money are their own.
Perhaps, if not bailouts you say? Well, more on that later.

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Wednesday ~ December 28th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
Jonathan M.F. Catalán
I think it’s misleading to make the claim (I’m not insinuating that you, in particular, are making it) that people hold a fear of debt simply out of the belief that “too much debt is bad” — even though it is oftentimes framed as such (including by politicians, such as Ron Paul [comparing national debt to household debt]). I think there is a more complicated rationale that many, although not all, hold: accumulating debt without adding to productivity is potentially harmful.
“Households” accumulate debt. The father or mother of a household may take out a loan to invest it in a new family business. This debt will be paid off by future productivity. Those who support fiscal stimulus are suggesting a similar relationship: government expenditure will directly or indirectly provide the means towards productive growth in the United States. A more productivity society will be one more capable of repaying the debt (the debt burden will fall; it will take up less of our nominal [monetary] aggregate demand).
The fear is that this narrative is not true: further government spending (and, thus, accumulation of debt — unless it is paid for by direct fiduciary expansion) will no increase productivity. Instead, our debt accumulation is akin to paying for your consumer shopping on your six different credit cards.
I’m not suggesting that this fear has any legitimate theoretical backing (although, I personally think it does). I’m just saying that the portrayal of the fear of debt by people like Krugman is not entirely accurate, and it avoids detailing the major, fundamental theoretical differences which have led to a variance in opinions on whether we should accumulate greater debt or repay what we have collected so far.
Wednesday ~ December 28th, 2011 at 3:54 pm
azizonomics
The real problem with debt is counter-party risk and resultant fragility.
Counter-party risk is a symptom of dependency. And the global financial system is a paradigm of inter-dependency: inter-connected leverage, soaring gross derivatives exposure, abstract securitisations.
When everyone in the system owes shedloads of money to everyone else the failure of one can often snowball into the failure of the many.
That, as much as anything else, is the real problem with all the policy that has gone into preserving at stabilising the financial system since 2008. It has preserved a system full of counter-party risk, where one big failure could snowball into the failure of the entire system.
If we want to reduce counter-party risk and systemic fragility we have to reduce debt (expressed as the debt-to-GDP ratio).
Thursday ~ December 29th, 2011 at 4:32 am
Tel
Can you explain how it is possible for everyone to owe money to everyone else?
Thursday ~ December 29th, 2011 at 4:57 pm
azizonomics
The US gov’t owe $100 to Goldman who owe $5 to JP Morgan, who owe $25 dollars to BoA, who owe $10 to Morgan Stanley, who owe $40 to Goldman, who owe $15 to BoA, who owe $9 to MF Global, who owe $60 to JP Morgan, etc, etc, etc.
Our economic system is based around an inter-connected web of debt. This is fundamentally dangerous. Because one actor defaulting can cause a liquidity shock.
We need a more robust economic system. If we were starting from zero, I’d probably advocate full-reserve banking, or a much lower reserve requirement (and ban things like re-hypothecation, and exotic derivatives). But we’re not starting from zero, so the first real step is a reduction in gross debt exposure, and net total debt.
Wednesday ~ December 28th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
Spending, Money, and Time, Part 2 « azmytheconomics
[...] reading: Paul Krugman on debt. Karl Smith comments. GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); [...]
Wednesday ~ December 28th, 2011 at 4:00 pm
Mr.Violet
ehm, ehm, you posted it twice…
Wednesday ~ December 28th, 2011 at 6:44 pm
The Daily Climb « georgesblogforum
[...] on whose version we’re going to use. We believe that [...] Jon-Paul Modeled Behavior FeedNotes on Debt December 28, 2011Paul Krugman wades into debt fundamentals People think of debt’s role in the [...]
Thursday ~ December 29th, 2011 at 12:46 am
Rick Russell
Ultimately, money is just a way to transfer the fruits of human labor. When we make promises to others on the idea that our children will somehow bear the cost, they will be unable to use the fruits of their labor, nothing more and nothing less. Those labor products will be transferred to debt holders.
It’s a simple opportunity cost problem. If we spend 15% of the federal budget servicing the debt, that’s 15% of our tax dollars that can’t be spent on things our government, and the public, needs right now. As that number grows, our options to use our money for our own needs will be increasingly constrained.
How much to we constrain ourselves? 20%? 30%? 50%? Would we be happy with a federal budget that was 50% interest on the national debt, paying back China and others for useless foreign wars that added nothing to our ability to generate wealth?
Thursday ~ December 29th, 2011 at 11:12 am
SRBAC
Krugman seems more and more to be living in a dream world. If looking a reality with a different perspective will change its consequences he’s right on.
Friday ~ December 30th, 2011 at 3:03 am
ende
Yeah, I’m sorry, interest on debt is very real, no matter how hard Mr Krugman likes to believe it’ll all just.. WORK OUT somehow.
Friday ~ December 30th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
Foster Boondoggle
The commenters on the Times’ website and several here seem not to be able to read what Krugman has written. First of all, he takes up the question of external vs. internal debt and points out that the vast majority of US government debt (including state & local, I believe, but it’s not important) is held domestically. A small fraction is owned by the chinese, japanese, etc. Given that, the simple point he makes is that debt service – including interest payments – is an internal transfer. It does not rob the economy of productive resources or capacity. Saying “interest on debt is real” doesn’t address the point.
Leaving aside foreign debt, the other key point is that the assertion that we’re leaving our descendants “in debt” is simply false. Collectively we owe the money to ourselves.
The real issue is not whether the government has to borrow in order to fund its activities. It’s whether the government is using the resources at its disposal wisely – for education, infrastructure, and other productive collective activities – or foolishly, as on pointless overseas military adventures and endless purchases of weaponry and an enormous standing army. One will produce future economic growth, the other won’t.
Monday ~ January 23rd, 2012 at 8:25 pm
The Daily Climb-Wednesday, Dec. 28th, 2011 | The Daily Climb-Daily Posting Of Relevant Content
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