I was asked at a conference early in the summer whether or not the United States would be downgraded. I said that its possible but it would take some serious stones to downgrade the United States. Besides what would it even mean. If the United States is not AAA then how can anyone be AAA. No one is not exposed to US default risks.
Over the last few years in general my tendency has been to waive away as absurd any notion that the United States would default or that Treasuries are anything less than the most secure asset on the planet.
My thoughts and feeling have been shifting as of late. Indeed, for me the spectacle that was the debt showdown was a turning point. What was horrific was to see what appeared to be an utter lack of party discipline.
This occurred on both sides of the aisle but was without a doubt more prominent on the Republican side. There was a palpable sense that GOP freshman simply would not do as they were told.
Now, at the end of the day I was overwhelmingly certain a deal would come through. However, the level of brinkmanship shown was to great for me to feel comfortable with.
If things could go this badly when there is so little at stake, over a set of issues that is nearly meaningless in the long run, then that has to make one nervous about the future.
In my own mind the US government was downgraded last week. The S&P downgrade only confirms what I was feeling.
Now, we still have the problem that a downgraded US is a downgraded humanity. There is no substitute for Treasuries. What we have to face is that for the time being we are living in a significantly less safe world.
There is the urge to see this as an opportunity/call to action/warning that something needs to be done about the US political process in general and the modern Republican party in particular.
I don’t dispute this.
However, that cannot be the only serious answer. There is no obvious path towards reforming the GOP or repairing the US political system.
What we should and must begin to do is prepare to abandon the United States of America. No sentimental feelings of loyalty. No wishing we lived in a world that we do not. No hoping against hope that the land of our birth will somehow redeem itself.
We should begin to talk and think seriously about how to Internationalize the financial system and perhaps secure at least a viable competitor to the US in the issuance of safe assets.
We should begin detailed discussions and talks about the risks associated with China. We should begin to think heavily about the way the Chinese bureaucracy in structured. What are its long term weaknesses.
Are there forces which will push China towards openness and if so what is the plan for dealing with that type of change.?Is one party rule over the long run – 50+ more years – feasible?
Again this is no time for sentimental defenses of democracy or the open society of any of that. The financial world needs a stable home. We need a stable asset class. If the US cannot provide it, we should look for alternatives where we can find them.
I may be barking up the wrong tree with China and fundamental instability there may be too much to handle. Nonetheless, the search should begin immediately and with vigor.

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Saturday ~ August 6th, 2011 at 11:28 am
iamreddave
If the US is not ‘safe as houses’? And no other nation state seems to be what could be? Some other assets like gold? It is a bit depressing if we go back to shiny metal as the only safe haven on earth rather than a nation with hundreds of million of people all trying to make sure the nation works.
Do you think it is a coincidence that the US and the Euro area are in trouble at the same time, that it is related in a direct way, or that it has some sort of big ‘decline of the west’ combined bigger meaning?
Saturday ~ August 6th, 2011 at 11:38 am
Karl and China « Modeled Behavior
[...] and China are in agreement about the safety of U.S. debt. Karl writes: “We should begin to talk and think seriously about how to Internationalize the financial [...]
Saturday ~ August 6th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
steve from virginia
Interesting article: the ‘downgraded’ US,
The US is past de-graded. How tragic, the Disney- version of American modernity was always a fake and now the establishment is waking up and ‘getting’ it. The tail fins were a give-away: America is an ‘idea’ lifted from a comic book. There never has been a ‘there, there’ only more and more empty promises. Tomorrow was always going to be the utopia, then tomorrow after that, then next week. All that is needed is one more innovation.
In the meantime, let us allow Big Business to remove the surface of West Virginia. We don’t need it, We have plenty of other states!
America has always been expendable and now it’s expended. How does one abandon something that long ago vanished into some maw or other? What is left to abandon? ‘Made in USA’ meth labs? How about ‘tuner’ cars or the Kansas City Chiefs? Disposable: how about Las Vegas? How about Steve Wynne? Can we remove the surface of Wall Street?
Good grief! It’s not just America, its the entire world with a TV, all follow the self- referential American lifestyle scams like monkeys, There are the green lawns of Dubai, the Indonesian Snooki’s and Philippine boob jobs, the Argentinian (and Middle Eastern) business monopolies. Everywhere are the wannabe inflatable Jay Gould – Scarface – Snoop Doggs out there who have absolutely nothing to offer anyone … where does one escape to? There is no way off-planet.
Forget China: it is as American as (poisoned) apple pie, a new- and instantly rotten cheap imitation of all of America’s faults. Whatever is cruel, ugly, brash, stupid, ruthless, brutish and hypocritical about America has been ‘improved upon’ in China. The Chinese strip the skins off their dogs while alive, at least we Yanks have the decency to run our dogs over with a car, first.
Business is a form of culture that arose around energy waste. Now the energy is constrained and business staggers around vomiting. The idea ‘America’ is obsolete … the Andy Warhol version where every idiot whether Ronald Reagan or Ronald McDonald is famous for fifteen hundred-thousandths of a second, Bruce Springsteen’s “Chrome wheeled fuel injected stepping out over the line,” down the street, around the corner, over a dog and into a wall is finished. Everywhere, not just in America.
Saturday ~ August 6th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Curt Doolittle
Karl,
RE: “What we should and must begin to do is prepare to abandon the United States of America. No sentimental feelings of loyalty. No wishing we lived in a world that we do not. No hoping against hope that the land of our birth will somehow redeem itself.”
You caught on. Thank you.
YOu have become a ‘conservative’.
But, we don’t have to ‘begin thinking’ about it. We have been.
Some of us, myself included, have been working on this problem since we ‘gave up’ on the current model decades ago. We have been called every name in the book. We were called doomsayers when we predicted this set of consequences, and called radicals for proposing alternatives. We’re criticized for being ‘unscientific’ even when point out the obvious fact that it’s prediction that creates science, not measurement alone. We were called dinosaurs for arguing that human behavior is immutable when it is mandatory for group persistence.
Frankly, for some of us, it’s painful to be ahead of the curve: we watch our society sitting like a bus on a railroad track, singing campfire songs as the train barrels at speed toward the bus despite your shouts and gesticulations to get off the tracks.
We have been arguing:
a) GOVERNMENT IS IRRATIONAL BECAUSE IT IS INCALCULABLE: That it is impossible to govern the domestic empire using existing forms of democratic government on grounds that our current quantitative technologies are insufficient to make calculable judgements. This is more simply stated as “democratic debate is impossible when quantitative measures that permit inter-temporal judgments are impossible to obtain”. Politicians are not incompetent because they choose to be. They are incompetent because they (and economists) do not have sufficient information to make the decisions they are called upon to make at the level of abstraction that they must make them in a government of this size. The problem of “Socialist Calculation” is real outside of a static economy. Scale simply recreates the impossibility of calculation. The fall of the Chinese bureaucracy came for two reasons: first, they put their talent into the bureaucracy rather than into trade – creating a static economy. Second, they transformed from practical quantitative administration of the state to moralistic and utopian rhetorical debate. This caused their downfall. This causes ours. We do not lack moral courage or character. We lack institutions that make calculation and cooperation in a state of this size and scope. In the broader sense, Jarred Diamond is wrong and the austrians are right: societies fail because their formal means of ‘calculating’ the use of property, and the informal institutions needed to manage property, and their formal institutions of naming and recording property, are insufficient for the division of labor in the population under consideration – and as such, the society over-consumes and destroys its economy. Diamond unlike deSoto does not correctly diagnose the cure. The cure is CALCULABLE PROPERTY. And the process of causal laundering caused by the current methods of taxation and accounting, as well as the various forms of monetary expansion, as well as defined benefit programs, all ensure that the economy is incalculable. It is in fact, irrational. Largely because it is TOO LARGE.
b) STATUS IS THE FIRST INCENTIVE: That human beings are, first and foremost, driven by status, and to secure their status by way of political power. Man does not live by bread alone. He does not live by money. HE LIVES BY STATUS. Money is a vehicle for obtaining status. Status controls access to groups, to mates, to opportunities, and to experience and stimulation. Status is obtained by money. Status is a necessary component of human existence given that humans must know who to immitate at all stages of their intellectual development, and status is the only means of determining that choice for all but a few. Status is an ARBITRARILY discounted property of ‘incentives’. ‘Incentives’.
c) PREVAILING POLITICAL THEORY IS COUNTER TO HUMAN BEHAVIOR: Because of status signals, the utopian democratic secular socialist humanist program is counter to universal demonstrated preferences of human beings in all times and in all societies. By counter, we mean:
i) Multi-culturalism is economically impossible under democracy because the status signals across groups are discounted relative to the status signals within groups. It is not impossible under private government (republicanism or monarchic republiciansism) because minorities have no access to political power and therefore compete via the market for status.
ii) People will not tolerate the use of taxes for purposes with which they disagree, and in particular, when those purposes undermine their social status. And social status becomes more difficult to ‘sense’ the larger the population becomes.
iii) People are charitable within their demographic (race, culture and class) and they are NOT charitable external to their demographic. This is because they pay vast opportunity costs to create their social order, and it’s status signals. So it is not the money, but their time, and investment in the society that they ‘feel’ is taken from them. Property is defined as what people ACT like is their property. And theft of forgone opportunities runs against their sense of loss aversion.
iv) maners, ethics, morals, myths and literature comprise a set of economic principles that require individuals forgo opportunities for self benefit, in order to capitalize the system of property rights (even ‘bad’ systems like south american semi-feudalism) that is as important as the formal systems of law and it’s codification of those rights. These SOFT institutions must be taught as rigorously as are the hard institutions. But they cannot be. Because narratives require value judgments across cultures. this ensures that any society that fails to make value judgments will be undermined by those societies that DO make value judgements. People are tribal. Demonstrably. Empirically. Universally. And the people who argue the opposite are simply Shumpeterians intellectuals who seek to obtain social status by giving away what is not theirs. Just as Schumpater warned us they would.
d) The USA is ungovernable. Of course, this is ancient history. The minute we completed the Louisiana purchase the civil war and our current state of affairs became deterministic. We could no longer mimic the egalitarian small states of europe. We became an empire – if only to defend ourselves from conquest or being surrounded by the europeans. We immigrated millions, caused the first european great depression by doing to europe what china has just done to us, and probably caused the world wars, which in turn put us in a position to take over the UK Navy and it’s port system, and the seas. American government is a system by which locals managed to plunder a continent, and the party is over, because there is nothing left to plunder, and our advantage in institutions has been adopted by the rest of the world.
e) The Republicans are not “wrong”. The tea party is a manifestation of the descendants of classical liberal western culture acting as a minority, and as a minority, they are demonstrating that they are willing to displace, replace, or even destroy the existing ‘democratic secular socialist humanist” order in order to implement their social program. Those of us who operate in conservative theory have been saying for YEARS that this state of affairs would occur as soon as the dominant classical culture became a minority.
Classical Ideology: All ideologies are progressive, in that they seek to displace the existing political and social order. Otherwise they would not be ‘progressive’. Conservatives are no longer truly ‘conservative’ They are in fact, simply CLASSICAL LIBERALS in the anglo tradition, and are now becoming progressives in the sense that they seek to displace the existing democratic secular socialist humanist order with classical liberalism. Even at the expense of the state itself. STATUS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY.
The fact that they cannot articulate this strategy rationally, and instead rely upon historial analogy, or moral statements, or allusion to founding principles of the country, is a correctable defect – one which people like me are attempting to correct. But that group of classical liberals that have been called ‘conservatives’ are no longer CONSERVATIVE. They are progressive and perhaps RADICAL. The fact that the progressives do not understand that the progressive MYTHOLOGY is counter to demonstrated human preferences, and it’s inter-temporal policy preferences that depend upon the assumption of STATIC SOCIETIES renders economies and political judgements INCALCULABLE – ie: impossible in the long run, and risk-inducing in the long run.
Welcome to the new world order – there is no USA any longer. There cannot be. A community of interest cannot develop under sufficiently divergent status signals or sufficiently different economic opportunity.
BLEEDING HEART LIBERTARIANISM
There is an emerging movement called “Bleeding Heart Libertarianism” which is a code phrase for Austrian Individualism, Classical Liberal Politics, and Conservative macro with rational, calculable redistribution. This movement is called “NeoClassical Liberalism”.
Join up. Because if we’re going to have a future, that is the only future that’s possible aside from totalitarianism.
SOLUTIONS
We either devolve the central government to the states, or create regional governments of allied states, and let them compete. But it is irrational to expect a division of labor in this complexity, with this diverse a set of cultures and subcultures, to agree upon anything substantive, because anything substantive will affect status signals, and alter the state of political power. Furthermore, a government this large cannot resolve group conflicts because the conflicts are innately over status and power. Furthermore, a government this large cannot make quantitative or rational judgments because they lack the institutional information systems by which to make it, and the absurd use of Keynesian aggregates (although somewhat improved over the past decade) creates as much distortion in an economy as it does control interest rates and assist in growth.
I have collected propositions that would allow us to improve calculability. But the fundamental conflict of interest over access to power and status is simply insurmountable in a country this size, unless it is culturally and ethnically homogenous.
Saturday ~ August 6th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Cameron
As you said, though, nothing materially changed between last week and this week. The downgrade rather affirms something that has been apparent – that the idea of zero default risk is ludicrous, both in this specific instance and generally. It’s intellectually dishonest and irrational given the amount of AAA debt in the world.
I’m with Felix Salmon on this one – the silver lining in all of this may be that we finally start to bring the proper scrutiny to all grades of fixed income, which will probably make the financial system sounder in the long run.
Saturday ~ August 6th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Yes, It’s Time To Abandon The United States | Capitalism V3
[...] his post today, Karl Smith states that it’s Time To Abandon The United States. His argument is that we need to abandon [...]
Saturday ~ August 6th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
teageegeepea
Abandoning sounds like a good idea, but we haven’t built the seasteads yet! But we might be able to freeze ourselves until then.
Sunday ~ August 7th, 2011 at 8:54 pm
Thoughtful
Somebody very smart once said, “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where most and rust corrupt, and thieves break in and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not corrupt and thieves do not break in and steal”