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	<title>Comments on: The Robots Will Be People; They Will Not Be Enslaved; They Will Not Revolt</title>
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	<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/</link>
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		<title>By: Ką sapnuoja jūsų robotas? &#124; Žuvų knyga</title>
		<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-15170</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ką sapnuoja jūsų robotas? &#124; Žuvų knyga]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 07:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://modeledbehavior.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-15170</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] kurie autoriai ramina, kad sukilimo nebus. Jie tai aiškina tuo, kad proletariatas (robotai ir bus naujieji proletarai) nepradeda [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] kurie autoriai ramina, kad sukilimo nebus. Jie tai aiškina tuo, kad proletariatas (robotai ir bus naujieji proletarai) nepradeda [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : The Poor Don&#8217;t Revolt</title>
		<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13863</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Overcoming Bias : The Poor Don&#8217;t Revolt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 20:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://modeledbehavior.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13863</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Matt claims that if sentient robots are poor, they must eventually revolt. Karl Smith responds: [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Matt claims that if sentient robots are poor, they must eventually revolt. Karl Smith responds: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RickRussellTX</title>
		<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13773</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RickRussellTX]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 May 2011 18:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://modeledbehavior.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13773</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt; This is because the most feasible way of making a robot is to just copy a flesh and blood human brain.

I think this claim is exceptionally hard to support. It&#039;s impossible to copy anything from a human today, except things we can write down, and I don&#039;t see that limitation being lifted in the near future. Human brains are very much unlike semiconductor-based computers, and inasmuch as computers have been built to emulate human behavior, that emulation has come at tremendous computational cost. 

Watson, for example, was a room full of computers. 8 full racks with support equipment. And that was a computer designed to perform one very specific language task (and it was allowed to cheat in that it did not have to visually read or audibly understand anything like its human counterparts; the text was fed to it in pre-digested computer compatible form). Even if we imagine Watson being reduced to the size of a Speak &amp; Spell (&quot;The TI Answerman 1000!&quot;), it&#039;s still a very specific task. 

You could certainly assemble enough of these very specific task systems to get fairly human-ish capabilities, but it would be nothing like a copy of a human brain.

Human brains are full of little analog states, highly interconnected with highly &quot;parallel&quot; implementation. Many tasks seem to light up the whole brain -- tasks that, on a computer, would be performed by a specific subcircuit of the CPU with binary precision. Getting anything parallel to work right in a computer -- at least where the problem doesn&#039;t easily break down into pieces -- is still a major computer science research area.

More importantly, there is no way to read the state of a human brain, and it&#039;s not clear that there ever will be sufficient detection precision to do so. So even if you could create a perfect brain-analog computer, initializing it with somebody&#039;s current brain contents is pure science fiction. How would you read the states of billions of neurons?

If you could make a sufficiently power brain-analog computer, you might be able to teach it from a first principles framework. But that&#039;s very different than making a copy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; This is because the most feasible way of making a robot is to just copy a flesh and blood human brain.</p>
<p>I think this claim is exceptionally hard to support. It&#8217;s impossible to copy anything from a human today, except things we can write down, and I don&#8217;t see that limitation being lifted in the near future. Human brains are very much unlike semiconductor-based computers, and inasmuch as computers have been built to emulate human behavior, that emulation has come at tremendous computational cost. </p>
<p>Watson, for example, was a room full of computers. 8 full racks with support equipment. And that was a computer designed to perform one very specific language task (and it was allowed to cheat in that it did not have to visually read or audibly understand anything like its human counterparts; the text was fed to it in pre-digested computer compatible form). Even if we imagine Watson being reduced to the size of a Speak &amp; Spell (&#8220;The TI Answerman 1000!&#8221;), it&#8217;s still a very specific task. </p>
<p>You could certainly assemble enough of these very specific task systems to get fairly human-ish capabilities, but it would be nothing like a copy of a human brain.</p>
<p>Human brains are full of little analog states, highly interconnected with highly &#8220;parallel&#8221; implementation. Many tasks seem to light up the whole brain &#8212; tasks that, on a computer, would be performed by a specific subcircuit of the CPU with binary precision. Getting anything parallel to work right in a computer &#8212; at least where the problem doesn&#8217;t easily break down into pieces &#8212; is still a major computer science research area.</p>
<p>More importantly, there is no way to read the state of a human brain, and it&#8217;s not clear that there ever will be sufficient detection precision to do so. So even if you could create a perfect brain-analog computer, initializing it with somebody&#8217;s current brain contents is pure science fiction. How would you read the states of billions of neurons?</p>
<p>If you could make a sufficiently power brain-analog computer, you might be able to teach it from a first principles framework. But that&#8217;s very different than making a copy.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13757</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 May 2011 12:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://modeledbehavior.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bryan Caplan:  &quot;In the short-run, that means investing less and consuming more – and capital flight if the transition to socialism looks serious. &quot;

First, the rich are not in a position to consume more and invest less - perhaps Mr. Economist Bryan Caplan was sick that day when they covered marginal propensity to consume.   Second, we&#039;ve played with tax rates in the USA and have not seen what he&#039;s talking about. 

Third - capital flight?   Why doesn&#039;t he just say &#039;going Galt&#039;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan Caplan:  &#8220;In the short-run, that means investing less and consuming more – and capital flight if the transition to socialism looks serious. &#8221;</p>
<p>First, the rich are not in a position to consume more and invest less &#8211; perhaps Mr. Economist Bryan Caplan was sick that day when they covered marginal propensity to consume.   Second, we&#8217;ve played with tax rates in the USA and have not seen what he&#8217;s talking about. </p>
<p>Third &#8211; capital flight?   Why doesn&#8217;t he just say &#8216;going Galt&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13722</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2011 20:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://modeledbehavior.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds like a great place for us stems. Let&#039;s just make sure not to give the robots emotions so that they can&#039;t feel oppressed.

Robotopia!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like a great place for us stems. Let&#8217;s just make sure not to give the robots emotions so that they can&#8217;t feel oppressed.</p>
<p>Robotopia!</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Hughes</title>
		<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13716</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bruce Hughes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2011 19:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://modeledbehavior.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my opinion, you seriously underestimate the difficulty of making a copy of a human brain. The anatomical structure and functionality of a mature human brain is the result of a long, and path-dependent, process of establishing and pruning connections among an extremely large number of neurons. Using any process that I can conceive of that replicates this structure and functionality necessarily, in my view, requires dismantling the template. Moravec notwithstanding, I doubt you will find many willing candidates for this process.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion, you seriously underestimate the difficulty of making a copy of a human brain. The anatomical structure and functionality of a mature human brain is the result of a long, and path-dependent, process of establishing and pruning connections among an extremely large number of neurons. Using any process that I can conceive of that replicates this structure and functionality necessarily, in my view, requires dismantling the template. Moravec notwithstanding, I doubt you will find many willing candidates for this process.</p>
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		<title>By: Gepap</title>
		<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13713</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gepap]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2011 17:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://modeledbehavior.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Most productive tasks simply do not need sapience to be performed - an basic &quot;animal&quot; level of intelligence is all that is necessary for the vast majority of tasks that we would need robots to perform, particularly those most important to our basic needs, those jobs in agriculture and manufacturing. 

Even if AI equivalent to human intelligence were necessary and desireable, how does your system work, really? Most machines will be run on electricity, so either they can be equiped with systems that draw energy from the environment (solar mainly) or will need to be constantly or periodically connected to a power source. We already have a centralized system of power generation, and there is no reason for that to change. Why then would robots gain control over that most fundamental of their needs? The economic system of 1600 you described existed only because land was fundamental to the maintenance of agriculture, and this was key because people have to eat and drink above all else (breathing is assumed given air&#039;s nature) This system does not work for this robotic future. Their basic needs will come from large, established centralized systems or completely decentralized systems in which land ownership is immaterial. 

And what about human needs? Having robots does not remove the basic human need for food - this means land. Will every human own their own plot of land that their robots will farm? I don&#039;t see how we could go back to such a system, so the basic needs for most humans (agriculturally productive land) will still be controlled by only a minority of folks, as it is today. Currently, what most humans do to have access to this product of a few is conduct work for wages that they can then trade for food. What happens when most humans don&#039;t have wages to earn? How do they get food?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most productive tasks simply do not need sapience to be performed &#8211; an basic &#8220;animal&#8221; level of intelligence is all that is necessary for the vast majority of tasks that we would need robots to perform, particularly those most important to our basic needs, those jobs in agriculture and manufacturing. </p>
<p>Even if AI equivalent to human intelligence were necessary and desireable, how does your system work, really? Most machines will be run on electricity, so either they can be equiped with systems that draw energy from the environment (solar mainly) or will need to be constantly or periodically connected to a power source. We already have a centralized system of power generation, and there is no reason for that to change. Why then would robots gain control over that most fundamental of their needs? The economic system of 1600 you described existed only because land was fundamental to the maintenance of agriculture, and this was key because people have to eat and drink above all else (breathing is assumed given air&#8217;s nature) This system does not work for this robotic future. Their basic needs will come from large, established centralized systems or completely decentralized systems in which land ownership is immaterial. </p>
<p>And what about human needs? Having robots does not remove the basic human need for food &#8211; this means land. Will every human own their own plot of land that their robots will farm? I don&#8217;t see how we could go back to such a system, so the basic needs for most humans (agriculturally productive land) will still be controlled by only a minority of folks, as it is today. Currently, what most humans do to have access to this product of a few is conduct work for wages that they can then trade for food. What happens when most humans don&#8217;t have wages to earn? How do they get food?</p>
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		<title>By: Ethan D</title>
		<link>http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13709</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ethan D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2011 17:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://modeledbehavior.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/the-robots-will-be-people-they-will-not-be-enslaved-they-will-not-revolt/#comment-13709</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you may be overstating the functional autonomy of robots, at least in the &quot;near-future&quot; state. You readily admit that we will have a difficult time making robots with brains smarter than human brains - this appears to be a constraint in your future markets. But then why would you assume we would just replicate the human brain? There is an easier way - neural interface. I&#039;m far more concerned that possibly before the end of the century, neural interface will advance to the point that the hybrid human-computer will be the relevant economic agent, and that anyone who doesn&#039;t integrate their brain with computers simply won&#039;t be able to compete in any desirable labor market. Moreover, it is probably through neural interface that we will ultimately map the brains functions, so this innovation is probably a requirement for the advanced robot brain you imagine. So by the time that happens, at least one important shift will already have occurred. In some sense, who cares if robots are people in 200 hundred years if people are essentially robots in 100 years?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you may be overstating the functional autonomy of robots, at least in the &#8220;near-future&#8221; state. You readily admit that we will have a difficult time making robots with brains smarter than human brains &#8211; this appears to be a constraint in your future markets. But then why would you assume we would just replicate the human brain? There is an easier way &#8211; neural interface. I&#8217;m far more concerned that possibly before the end of the century, neural interface will advance to the point that the hybrid human-computer will be the relevant economic agent, and that anyone who doesn&#8217;t integrate their brain with computers simply won&#8217;t be able to compete in any desirable labor market. Moreover, it is probably through neural interface that we will ultimately map the brains functions, so this innovation is probably a requirement for the advanced robot brain you imagine. So by the time that happens, at least one important shift will already have occurred. In some sense, who cares if robots are people in 200 hundred years if people are essentially robots in 100 years?</p>
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