David Frum, commenting on the Keynes vs Hayek rap video released last week, makes a point that I noticed throughout the video as well:
The economic question we have faced since 2008 is not: “Shall the government of the United States dictate prices and production throughout the US economy?” Who advocates that? Not Larry Summers. Not Tim Geithner. Not Ben Bernanke. And if there’s any tiny remaining sliver of Barack Obama’s being that wishes for central planning, it to this day remains profoundly hidden beneath all his contrary appointments, policies, and pronouncements.
Throughout the video, “Keynes” asserts that in a depression, we need to start the flow of spending, to boost aggregate demand to a level in which the economy can sustain itself. Keynes, and modern Keynesians, believe(d) that fiscal policy could take up the torch of private spending while household balance sheets were mended, and that the boost in GDP would help us recover more quickly. And, while “Hayek” had some really brilliant lines throughout the video (“…if every worker was staffed in the army and fleet/we’d have full employment and nothing to eat…“, and my favorites: “…jobs are a means, not the ends in themselves/people work to live better, to put food on the shelves/real growth means production of what people demand/that’s entrepreneurship not your central plan…” and “…the economy’s not a car, there’s no engine to stall no expert can fix it, there’s no “it” at all…“), you’ll notice that through nearly all of the video, he is making a generalized argument against central planning. They’re talking past each other, or at the very least perceiving themselves as having two different conversations.
However, Frum runs into trouble with this:
The Hayek character says, “I feel for the suffering, I’m not some kind of jerk.” The Keynes character answers, “Now my old friend, I’d never reject you as if you were heartless, you know I respect you.”
But the suffering want more than “feeling.” They want a policy response. And it is precisely a policy response that our modern self-described Hayekians preclude. Monetary policy? No can’t do that – it only leads to inflation and more bubbles. Stimulative government spending then? No that’s out, it leads to inflation, bubbles, etc. Tax cuts for the ordinary working person such as the payroll tax holiday? No way – we must balance the budget. So that leaves only supply-side tax cuts aimed at the upper-income brackets. balanced by large immediate budget cuts in Medicaid, food stamps, unemployment insurance. Does anybody believe that such a policy mix will lead to rapid employment growth? The Heritage Foundation claimed so, for approximately 48 hours, but now even they have abandoned that assertion.
To the question: What do you do in a deflation, Keynes offered an answer. He intended his answer as a means to preserve exactly the kind of spontaneous order praised by Hayek. Keynes lived and died a liberal in the old sense of the term. There are many criticisms of the Keynesian answer, mostly having to do with that long term that he so famously shrugged off. But some answer is better than no answer – and much better than the answer offered by the modern self-described Hayekians.
I don’t know about “modern, self described Hayekians” (actually I do, but I don’t want to speak for them), but this wasn’t Hayek’s position at all. As Larry White has pointed out in a JMCB article:
The Hayek-Robbins (“Austrian”) theory of the business cycle did not in fact prescribe a monetary policy of “liquidationism” in the sense of doing nothing to prevent a sharp deflation. Hayek and Robbins did question the wisdom of re-inflating the price level after it had fallen from what they regarded as anunsustainable level (given a fixed gold parity) to a sustainable level. They did denounce, as counterproductive, attempts to bring prosperity through cheap credit. But such warnings against what they regarded as monetary over-expansion did not imply indifference to severe income contraction driven by a shrinking money stock and falling velocity. Hayek’s theory viewed the recession as an unavoidable period of allocative corrections, following an unsustainable boom period driven by credit expansion and characterized by distorted relative prices. General price and income deflation driven by monetary contraction was neither necessary nor desirable for those corrections. Hayek’s monetary policy norm in fact prescribed stabilization of nominal income rather than passivity in the face of its contraction.
The bolded line is important, because if you take the Sumnerian theory of the Great Recession seriously, or even the most common explanation of events leading to the Great Contraction (’29-’32), the problem is that the monetary authority (the Federal Reserve) allowed NGDP expectations to fall off a cliff in late 2008 by passively tightening monetary policy…and that is exactly the opposite of what Hayek would have considered proper macroeconomic stabilization policy. As I understand Hayek’s NGDP rule, the central bank should stabilize M for any given V, consistent with zero aggregate growth in in the price level (PY), which would result in the type of deflationary growth that Hayek (and George Selgin) advocated.
No need to take White’s interpretation, though, here’s Hayek himself, agreeing with Keynes on the matter of deflation (though not the prescription of government expenditure, which is redundant with a NGDP level target):
On the first issue — whether to use one’s money or whether to hoard it — there is no important difference between us. It is agreed that hording money, whether in cash or in idle balances, is deflationary in its effects. No one thinks that deflation is in itself desirable.
Really, on the issue of monetary policy, I see Keynes and Hayek arguing together against the ever-popular real-bills doctrine
The debate about central planning was indeed contemporary in the 30′s, and today I think many libertarians don’t recognize or appreciate the extent to which we’ve won on that point…Hayek, indeed had a good (and I believe superior) answer to Keynesian fiscal policy…but you unfortunately won’t find it in the Keynes/Hayek video.
Note: I’m not foremost expert on Hayek, but I’m sure that if Greg Ransom (and others!) reads this blog, he will correct my errors in the comments!
Update: Tyler Cowen makes the same point in a single sentence…bet you wish I had put this update at the top ;].

18 comments
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Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 3:15 am
Greg Ransom
Great post. Well done.
In 1931/1932 Hayek praises Keynes for innovative new ideas for addressing below productivity norm deflation. And he endorses various monetary & fiscal measure for doing the same decade after decade in the years subsequent, even endorsing public works projects, in part on humanitarian grounds.
The differences between Hayek & Keynes lie deeper and are more profound.
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 3:23 am
Greg Ransom
Allan Meltzer makes a strong case for seeing Keynes belief in socializing all investment at the bedrock of his economics — which would directly implicate Hayek’s core argument against Lange and Lerner on collectivist economic planning.
Hayek only defeated the math neoclassical on central planning in the 1980s after Don Lavoie’s book revealed Hayek’s cognitive victory, which had _not_ been seen by the profession.
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 9:39 am
Lord
I think “jobs are a means, not the ends in themselves” is probably more wrong than right. Everyone has complaints about them but doing without them can be one of the most difficult problems people can face.
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 10:07 am
Schisma Tism
In general, sure, jobs are a means, not the end in themselves, but perhaps this is where macro needs to think more micro sometimes. Jobs ARE end end when you don’t have one and haven’t had one, or a consistent one, for a year or more due to low labor demand as a result of low demand in the aggregate. For as epic a story exists on the macro level, each individual serves as his or her own epic journey towards employment. Until that job is found, there is no means, only that end. Right now a lot of people, for long periods of time, are not finding either means nor an end to any of it.
I know Niklas is suspicious of the idea of skill atrophy, so the idea that jobs are only a means, not an end even in perpetua would make sense, but skills do atrophy in the eyes of potential employers – to the point that those workers are not prospective workers anymore and need to go back for training or complete career realignment in order to get back into the workforce. It’s not so much that the hands and mind aren’t crafty or sharp enough to do the work, it’s that there’s no way to prove that after a year of unemployment. Even new graduates have fresher experience and knowledge than the long-term unemployed.
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 10:01 am
Scott Sumner
Excellent post. Any belief attributed to Keynes is probably both true and false, as at one time or another he held a wide variety of contradictory views. He even praised “The Road to Serfdom.”
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 1:36 pm
teageegeepea
And just as Keynes gets misrepresented as opposed to the thesis of Hayek’s book (although admittedly he may have held a number of different positions at different times), said book gets misrepresented as an attack on the welfare state (which it explicitly endorses!).
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 10:10 am
Schisma Tism
If Washington’s modern idea of recovery, more specifically the Republican arguments (which arguably somewhat forced the Fed’s reluctance to do much else), are neither Hayekian or Keynesian, whose wisdom are they heeding? Caligula?
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 12:26 pm
RickRussellTX
Mercantilism. I don’t think the average legislator understands comparative advantage and production efficiency any more than they understand particle physics. Virtually every legislative decision seems to be based on the principle that the pie is fixed size, it’s not going to get any bigger, so we’ve got to protect our slice.
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 4:13 pm
Lord
Common Austrianism. The idea that bad times are the price we pay for good ones and government action only makes things worse and there is some inaction by which the economy fixes itself, like inaction is not an action. Hayek is rejected by them.
(Our politicians are free lunch addicts. Mercantilists would insist on trade surpluses like China, not deficits like our own.)
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 4:15 pm
Lord
Or would be rejected if they knew him better.
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 12:24 pm
RickRussellTX
I’m neither a Keynes nor Hayek scholar, but I’ve read a lot of Bastiat, so I’ll go there.
An economy loaded with government incentives and penalties intended to accomplish certain goals or protect certain producers is almost the same as a centrally planned economy. There is no practical difference between a tax on an imported product, a gendarme blocking customers from entering a store and buying an imported product, or the government choosing to spend taxpayer money on a public works project that will favor domestic producers of that product.
All of these mechanisms will either directly or indirectly cause the kind of interference in the business cycle that Hayek bemoans, with the consequent persistence of inefficient businesses and suppression of new business. There’s nothing wrong with using fiscal and monetary policy to juice the entire system with cash flow. There’s everything wrong with directing that cash flow to people and projects that are in government favor, and withholding it from businesses that are making smart decisions.
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 12:35 pm
Aidan
I might have this wrong, but my understanding is that Frum wasn’t prescribing those views to Hayek himself, but to modern Republicans who claim the mantle of Hayek. Pretty much every hack in the Republican Party is at least nominally Hayekian these days. The Becks and Limbaughs and Ryans cloak their arguments in Hayek without necessarily supporting what Hayek himself would actually prescribe – they just think The Road to Serfdom was a premonition of Barack Obama’s presidency.
When I read The Road to Serfdom I was shocked by how reasonable a lot of it was in comparison with some of the modern voices who claim to represent Hayek’s ideas. The modern Hayekian (at least those with any political power) do seem to fit Frum’s description, regardless of what Hayek himself would advocate.
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 1:14 pm
Two Cents on Keynes as a Central Planner « Increasing Marginal Utility
[...] Papola mischaraterized Keynes by dropping the word central plan. See Horwitz, Kuehn, Cowen, Rosser, Blanchard, and [...]
Sunday ~ May 1st, 2011 at 4:00 pm
The real Hayek vs the Hayek from the rap video. What did he really subscribe for depressions? « Economics Info
[...] Source [...]
Monday ~ May 2nd, 2011 at 4:12 am
Amin
Hayek on the “fatal conceit”
“We must face the fact that the preservation of individual freedom is incompatible with a full satisfaction of our views of distributive justice”
Monday ~ May 2nd, 2011 at 4:13 am
Amin
“To act on the belief that we possess the knowledge and the power which enable us to shape the processes of society entirely to our liking, knowledge which in fact we do not possess, is likely to make us do much harm.”
Monday ~ May 2nd, 2011 at 2:05 pm
rootedinprosperity.com » Blog Archive » Hayek versus Keynes
[...] “Frum and the Problem with Hayek“ [...]
Wednesday ~ May 4th, 2011 at 12:10 am
03 May 2011– Assorted at danielsgriffin.com/blog
[...] Frum and the Problem with Hayek Niklas Blanchard. Modeled Behavior. 01 May 2011. [...]