Jim Manzi replied to my defense of economics saying
What Smith is describing here is intelligent and data-driven theory-building. What’s missing is the part where the theory is tested, and proven to be reliable.
In other words: You say that you have the ability to predict the effect of stimulus. Prove it.
I don’t think think I am saying this. At least, not how I think Jim means it. I am saying I have reason to believe that the effects of stimulus will be X and I can make an argument for it.
If you want to hear that argument then I am more than willing to spell it out in great detail.
Moreover, this is all virtually anyone in any discipline has. I sometimes tell my students that scientists don’t prove, mathematicians and philosophers prove. Scientists accumulate evidence that seems to suggest.
This I think is true in all fields of science and is doubly true when that science is applied to actually engineering results in the real world. Not only have well relied upon theories in physics been upended upon careful examination but there is no one I know of who can design an airplane using a physics textbook. Nor, would many people trust an airplane to fly without testing it first.
And, despite despite all of the testing that is done, airplanes can a do malfunction and crash. There simply isn’t a “proving it” when it comes to making predictions about the real world. What we hope to do is give an answer that’s better than random and better than folk wisdom.
Now perhaps Jim is not confident that we can achieve our goal of beating randomness and folk wisdom. There are two basic lines of reasoning I can offer.
One is evidence and logic. We can talk about why in this case stimulus makes sense, why the evidence looks like it points in the direction that it does and why it seems to be telling us something different than mere folk wisdom.
Throughout human history evidence and logic have shown themselves useful. They are by no means omnipotent. The smartest people make mistakes. The most carefully argued cases are sometimes wrong. Nonetheless, as a general guide evidence and logic are useful.
Thus you should “rely” on my predication because you follow my evidence and logic. And, if you don’t follow my evidence and logic then we should talk about it. I talk about this for a living and am more than willing to devote as much time to it as Jim or anyone else wants. I crave the opportunity to offer evidence and logic for these positions. This what I hope to do with this blog.
So, to be clear, I am not asking at all that you simply submit to my superior knowledge, modeling or intuition. I am offering that intuition and if you want to see behind the hood and understand why I say all of these things then I am offering that too.
The second line I offer is that of experience. That when economists had the helm we really were able to produce results. In the 1980s Central Banks were largely turned over to their economists who produced low inflation and low unemployment by manipulating the overnight lending rate.
Indeed, the two major failures in that period, Japan and the current recession, coincided with the overnight lending rate hitting zero and thus no longer being under the economist’s control. So our basic argument was that we can steady the economy so long as we have control over the overnight rate seems to be validated.
Moreover, its validated in the direction we predicted. We argued that if the overnight rate was lower than we wanted the result would be inflation. If the overnight rate was higher than we wanted the result would be recession and disinflation.
This is key, because lots of pronouncements were issued when the recession started. Monetary economists said “we are running into the Zero Lower Bound and thus there will be high unemployment and disinflation.” Particularly, on the disinflation point, many people disagreed. But, we were right, there was high unemployment and disinflation.
So we have one example were the economists themselves got to run the institutions and the macro results confirmed what we said and were widely regarded as good.
Now that that tool is not available. So we are talking about other tools, fiscal stimulus, quantitative easing, etc.
If you are arguing that I don’t know for sure that these tools will work then you are right. I don’t know. What I am suggesting is that the same logic and evidence that worked for controlling the overnight rate is telling me certain things now.
I don’t ask that you simply trust this. We can go through the models. We can go through the logic. We can look at all the evidence. However, at the end of the day we have to make a choice. Even the choice to do nothing is a choice, with consequences for which we will be responsible.
I think making our choice based on logic, evidence and the experience of the Great Moderation is the way to go.

30 comments
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Monday ~ November 29th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
sardonic_sob
How is economists saying, “When we control the economy, we can make it do what we want until we can’t make money any cheaper” any different from politicians saying, “We can make everybody richer by printing currency until the value of the currency goes to zero?”
I’d rather have economists in charge of the financial system than politicians, if for no other reason than I hate most politicians far more than I hate most economists. But the argument that most of the good times in the past decades were due to economists’ strong hand at the tiller is unpersuasive: anybody can live well for quite some time on credit cards, whether they just run up bills with abandon or do it in a logical and academically justified way.
Monday ~ November 29th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
TequilaKid
Dear S.O.B.:
You are perfectly right to hate politicians, because most of them do the bidding of the wealthy oligarchy that controls the US. However, they are merely acting rationally according to the rules of the game. As explained by Jeff Bartels, a Princeton poli sci prof, in “Unequal Democracy”, politicians do the bidding of their political contributors (and not of those who vote for them).
However you can’t blame them for taking the only road to success that the system offers. If all political campaigns were publicly financed, or if all political contributions must be made through a blind fund that prevents politicians from knowing who contributed to their campaigns, the rules would be different and politicians would greatly improve.
Likewise introducing proportional representation instead of the current bizarre winner-takes-all setup would break the duopoly of power of the Republicrats and open the field to proposals that nowadays are relegated to the fringe. It would also eliminate pork-barrel, at least gographically distributed pork-barrel, and serve to integrate many disgruntled citizens into the political system.
So you should stop griping and start agitating for a constitutional convention, whch is long overdue.
Monday ~ November 29th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
sardonic_sob
We had a Constitutional convention and it got us where we are now. Why we’d expect a different outcome if we did it again, I’m sure I don’t know. At this point, I am pretty much ready to join Moldbug’s campaign to restore the Stuarts.
In any event, I am a rather firm believer in his core postulate, which is that Imperium fragments, but Imperium is conserved. If this is true – and I believe that it is – then while we can temporarily improve things (ironically, by undoing as much democratic evolution as we can) so long as we continue to insist on democracy we will end up where we are again, and given the size of our population and the increase in the speed of change, we will get here again much faster this time.
Monday ~ November 29th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
sardonic_sob
Incidentally, because I am a mean-spirited person who enjoys making other people uncomfortable, here is the essay which postulates the Imperium problem to which I refer:
http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2010/03/divine-right-monarchy-for-modern.html
Here is the relevant quote:
“No, comrades, Communism is not the problem! Communism? The problem? On the contrary, comrades – Communism is the cure! We suffer, not because we have been true to Communism, but because we have been untrue to Communism! To get back on the right track, comrades, we must redouble our efforts to achieve Communism… and so on.
I think of this when I hear anyone acting under the delusion that they can restore the American political system, presumably to some imagined youthful vitality.”
Tuesday ~ November 30th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Karl Smith
If we were just “running up bills” one would expect that to manifest itself as higher inflation.
Indeed, we got lower inflation. In the aftermath – we the “bill is due” you might say – we are getting still lower inflation.
Tuesday ~ November 30th, 2010 at 11:00 am
sardonic_sob
We have high inflation. The money supply has increased in astronomical fashion. (Incidentally, Richard Feynman once opined that we should use “economical” instead of “astronomical” when we talk about numbers that just keep exploding, since eventually we *will* find a limit to the size of the universe.) It has just not manifested itself in the places where high inflation usually impacts the average person.
Yet.
Monday ~ November 29th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
TequilaKid
Exactly! Manzi seems to be following the Philip Morris game plan of saying “Prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that smoking causes cancer!” and when you are unable to provide such a degree of certainty, just discards your claim as “junk science”.
Then, on the side, to ensure certainty, Philip Morris bribed a University of Geneva professor of medicine (name of Rykland, I believe) to forge the results of his second-hand smoke experiments. That was stated in a judgement by a Swiss appeals court.
Monday ~ November 29th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
TequilaKid
PS. I meant “to forestall certainty”, not “to ensure certainty”
Tuesday ~ November 30th, 2010 at 3:52 am
teageegeepea
Everyone stop talking about what models forecast, we have actual evidence.
Monday ~ December 13th, 2010 at 10:02 am
Economists Are Funny, Episode VI
[…] “lol” is used with reckless abandon nowadays, but I literally laughed out loud when I read this: The second line I offer [in defense of macroeconomic models] is that of experience. That when […]
Tuesday ~ January 11th, 2011 at 4:37 am
Abgan
Mr Smith, weren’t you, economists having the helm in ’60s? In what way do you differ from those economists that produced stagflation?
It’s easy to point the good period and say – it’s our achievement, but what about those not-so-shiny times? Aren’t you to blame for them?
I really appreciate the way you write, but you failed to convince me that quantitative easing won’t put us all back in ’70s?
Friday ~ March 18th, 2011 at 10:53 am
Economics as Science and Policy Advice: A Reply to Manzi « Modeled Behavior
[…] . . all we have is an informed opinion of the type we might have from an expert historian rendering an opinion about something the […]
Thursday ~ November 1st, 2012 at 6:18 pm
jiminy cricket
Mr. Smith, you state that while you cannot ‘prove’ the effect of the stimulus to the satisfaction of Jim Manzi, you nevertheless seem remarkably confident that you can make a convincing argument that your stance on the stimulus – more specifically, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 – is correct. You also state that such an argument would rest not merely on hunches and guesswork but, as per your quote: “[is] based on logic, evidence and the experience of the Great Moderation…”
If that is true, then I must ask why the arguments, logic, and evidence put forth by you and presumably others who agreed with you apparently were unable to persuade the battalions of economists who opposed the stimulus. 200 economists – amongst them Nobel laureates Vernon Smith, Edward Prescott, and James Buchanan along with perennial Nobel candidates as Eugene Fama and John Cochrane signed the open letter published in the NYTimes on Jan 28, 2009 – a mere 19 days before the passage of the stimulus – that disputed the stimulus. Other luminaries as Nobel laureates Thomas Sargent, Gary Becker and Robert Lucas and Nobel candidates Robert Barro, Kevin Murphy, and Luigi Zingales. Such sentiments clearly cannot easily be dismissed as merely the rantings of a misguided fringe: as Greg Mankiw acidly commented, any university who hired all of those aforementioned names would instantly have arguably the top-ranked economics department in the world.
I would hope that every single one of those named economists also rely upon the same principles of logic, evidence, and experience that you invoked. {If they do not – in other words, if you assert that those Nobel laureates and candidates do not actually rely upon logic, evidence, and experience – then we have a far more serious epistemological problem than I had ever imagined.} So that raises the question: how can two groups of economists looking at the same evidence, calling upon the same historical experience, and using the same principles of logic, nevertheless arrive at vastly differing conclusions? A related question would be: if many prominent economists are evidently unpersuaded by your arguments, why should the public be persuaded?
Which leads to the most frustrating aspect of economics (or perhaps the most appealing aspect, depending on your view of the true role of economics in society): its pervasive role as a tool to support certain political beliefs. Isn’t it a rather striking and convenient coincidence that right-wing, Republican-leaning economists always seem to find logic and evidence to support right-wing policies, and left-wing, Democratic-leaning economists always seem to find logic and evidence to support left-wing policies? Why doesn’t anybody ever seem to find the other side’s evidence and logic? Heck, a statement publicly supporting the economic policies of Mitt Romney has now been signed by nearly 700 economists and counting, including 6 Nobel Prize winners (and surely not coincidentally many of them are the very same economists mentioned above). Undoubtedly Obama can mobilize his own Praetorian Guard of elite economists to defend his policies. Who’s right, who’s wrong, who knows?
Nor does the evidence/logic put forth by economists seem suspiciously unpersuasive to other economists who weren’t already persuaded, apparently it’s unpersuasive to the economist who generated the evidence/logic in the first place. How many economists diametrically shifted their beliefs on a particular topic as a result of the research that they themselves conducted? For example, how many economists began their academic careers as left-wing radicals only to become stalwart conservatives, or vice versa, as a result of their own research which convinced them of the error of their ways? I would suspect that the number would be only a tiny handful at most. {The closest case I know about is Thomas Sowell, who probably doesn’t count for he repudiated his youthful Marxist beliefs prior to embarking upon his PhD.}
Instead, what you seem to have are economists clothing their prior hunches and beliefs in the garb of intimidating analytical economic models and econometric analyses in an effort to cloak them with the veneer of rigor. But at the end of the day, those prior beliefs and hunches are all we really have.
More importantly, if what economists are really doing is simply promoting their prior beliefs in mathematical/statistical language, then that immediately raises the question of what value-add the economics profession provides to society. After all, anybody of reasonable education can promote a belief-system. Professional politicians do so every day, and few of them are trained economists.
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