Matt Yglesias made the case recently that we should increase teachers’ salaries in order to raise teacher quality. He provides this graph showing teacher salary compared to per capita GDP in different countries:
Unfortunately for Matt, if he wants to increase teacher salaries the last thing he should be doing is telling people how much teachers make. A 2009 survey by Education Next and Harvard’s Program on Education Policy and Governance surveyed 3,000 people and split them into two groups. In the first group they found that 56% supported increasing teachers’ salaries and 46% supported increased education spending. The second group was first told the average teacher salary in their state and the average spending per pupil and then they asked them the same questions. Support for more teacher pay fell from 56% to 40% and support for more education spending fell from 46% to 38%. Apparently a majority of people favor higher teacher pay, but not when they know how much teachers currently make.
In reality the responses would probably be different if they were shown Matt’s graph rather than just told how much we spend. But the fact that people support higher education spending less when they know more doesn’t bode well for those who want to increase it.
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Saturday ~ September 25th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
jazzbumpa
I computed a simple (and simple minded) average for the nation from this data (2008), not weighted by anything.
http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
Gd Avg of State Avgs = $46,227. Gd Avg of starting Pay = $31,507
US median is right around $50 K.
So, learning that a starting teacher makes 63% of the national average income, and that a seasoned professional teacher earns 92% of the national average makes us less inclined to pay them more.
All I can conclude from this is that we are a nation of ass holes.
Shit!
JzB
Monday ~ September 27th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Superstantial
Nation of short sighted assholes.
Sunday ~ September 26th, 2010 at 8:58 am
roland
This doesn’t speak directly to pay, but we polled on spending in NC about four years ago, and used an experimental design. People who were shown data on education spending compared to other state spending (as percentage shares) thought we spent enough or even too much, but when people were asked the same question without being primed with the actual data, they thought we didn’t spend enough…
Sunday ~ September 26th, 2010 at 9:21 am
db
I wonder if there is much variation in workload among teachers in different countries. Things like number of work days per year and amount of shirking tolerated would probably affect how much monetary compensation teachers demand.
Sunday ~ September 26th, 2010 at 9:41 am
blokeinfrance
Can we get a graph of teacher pay vs pupil attainment, internationally. It might help to see if raising pay raised outcomes.
At a guess, no robust statistical correlation, so no justification for raising pay.
Sunday ~ September 26th, 2010 at 10:54 am
jazzbumpa
Roland -
My first comment applies.
Bloke -
Well, now that you mention it, that turns out to be a spectacularly awful idea. Thanks for bringing it up.
Diane Ravitch, the architect of national curriculum standards, school choice, rigorous testing – all the stuff that W’s leave every child behind program was based on – gives the whole package – and, BTW, charter schools, too – a failing grade.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100926/COL04/9260437/Champion-of-school-choice-is-taking-it-all-back
Here’s my favorite part, contra what Adam mentioned here recently (emphasis added):
“Now she’s convinced the proliferation of such* tests has succeeded mainly in watering down the curriculum and providing an incentive for cheating – by school administrators and elective officials, not students – on an unprecedented scale”
*standardized
Well, here in MI, anyone who’s paid attention has known that for a long, long time. The MEEP test is my classic example of poorly-thought-through measurement systems having undesirable negative consequences. Teachers don’t teach subject matter. They teach the god damned test.
Nota bene:
“What makes her critique more disturbing is that it seems rooted less in old loyalties than in new evidence.”
Every one of these reformist’s ideas has been an epic fail – as is blaming the teachers, BTW.
Read the article. It’s pretty interesting.
Cheers!
JzB
Monday ~ September 27th, 2010 at 12:08 am
teageegeepea
I didn’t know Ravitch was an architect of that stuff. I’ve also heard some dispute over her connection to the school-choice movement.
Stuart Buck has a lot of criticism for her. Ravitch has a podcast with Russ Roberts here. I’m not competent to judge the matter (though I think Adam and/or Karl have written about it here), but others might enjoy the links.
Sunday ~ September 26th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
jazzbumpa
Oh – if you want to put a human face on this (is that allowed?) go to the teacherportal link in my first comment and read THOSE comments.
To db’s point, it will shed some light on work loads.
Cheers!
JzB
Monday ~ September 27th, 2010 at 4:29 am
blokeinfrance
Thanks Jazz. So pupil outcomes in Illinois are much better than they are in Hawaii? I must have missed that bit.
If good teachers are motivated by their vocation, it seems a bit de trop to expect them to be motivated more by marginal pay rates.
One way of improving teacher quality would be to weed out entrants to the profession whose motivation is the long holidays (real or imagined). So: for the first few years after qualifying, you’ll be mopping the floors in the Springfield plant in your months off… This applies to start-out economics lecturers as well, of course.
All together now, howl!
Monday ~ September 27th, 2010 at 11:19 am
IVV
So increased pay improves teacher quality? Is this like how increased pay improves CEO quality?
Monday ~ September 27th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Superstantial
If you increase teacher pay, it becomes a more desirable job. This should increase the pool of candidates so that you can choose the most promising. Right now, where there is choice at all, it is from the bottom of the barrel, people who have BAs, but with a 2.5 or lower gpa. Unlike CEOs, we need to make teaching a more desirable job, higher pay goes a long way toward doing just that.
Tuesday ~ September 28th, 2010 at 10:41 am
IVV
Thanks, Superstantial. That’s an excellent way of putting it.
Wednesday ~ September 29th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
rossrn
No matter how much money a teacher earns, you can’t possibly improve education when the goal is to get the most students to be proficient on standardized tests, instead of trying to get the most out of each student.
Considering pay, and PA is probably on the high side, when you factor in a guaranteed pension and little to no employee contribution for medical, plus a 180 day work year (in PA) compared to about 230 for a typical worker, some district’s teacher pay is pretty good. Our administrators earn in 6 figure range, top of pay scale for teachers is in the $80s and they start mid $40s.