In the US and indeed much of the West democracy is synonymous with goodness. I’ve argued, however, that this is in part a result of the particular institutions of western society that make democracy workable and in part simple indoctrination.
There are intrinsic advantages to democracy but it is not clear to me that it is the right form of government for all people, at all times. It also appears that the people in Ukraine at least agree with that sentiment.
Which brings us to an interesting question. Could the public rightly relinquish its sovereignty? If you believe that a system of government not based on popular sovereignty is unjust then how would you respond to such an attempt? Is the resulting dictatorship rightful because it was voted in or is it wrong because it deviates from only just form of government?
HT Yglesias
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Friday ~ November 13th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Justin
Perhaps given the right structure such a system could be just, at least in the abstract. There would need to be some sort of mechanism by which the people could, at some later time, change their minds about the government. I don’t think you would want future generations, to infinity, to be bound by the decision of this generation to give up its sovereignty . You’d probably also need a process for succession. Whether it is a monarchical government or not, you’d still need to provide for the orderly, and perhaps publicly accepted, transition of government. And a robust set of rights, along with a judiciary that is not merely an appendage of the government.
Those are some bare minimums. I’ve surely left out some things. Again, I might not be the best person to ask, given that I’ve expressed (in class, but not in public per se) my support for an IQ test requirement for voting.
Sunday ~ November 29th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Alan D. Price, PhD
Interesting post and question, Karl. The data documenting the big change in attitude toward democracy in Ukraine is also interesting, but I think understandable, especially in comparison to Russia.
I think that the Ukrainians probably had higher hopes for democracy given their history of oppression by the Soviet rulers. I refer, for example, to the decimating famine brought about by Stalin in the 1930s. And, indeed, they start out with a more positive attitude than their Russian counterparts following the collapse of the Soviet Union. That expectation, however, has been grossly violated by the corrupt or self-serving politicians that have come to power in the Ukraine. Thus, the economy has floundered and never really met the promise of free market capitalism, whereas the Russian politicians, though continuing their perpetual corrupt practices have, nonetheless, made it possible for some of the population to do very well economically, in contrast to the situation in the Ukraine. There are definitely a lot of “have-nots” in Russia, as in the Ukraine, but there are many more “haves” in the Russian economy, which has done much better than its Ukrainian step-sister.
In the U.S., democracy is voted down every day! People vote by not being meaningfully involved in the political process, by which I mean not only interested, but adequately informed. Witness the voter registration drives by ACORN and other groups in which only those people who would vote, or could be persuaded to vote, for the programs of Democrats were solicited and put on the voter rolls. This means that the oligarchy that really controls American politics can have whatever way they want by manipulating the election process. Witness, also, the concern for voting irregularities during the 2000 and 2004 elections when the manipulated shoe was on the other partisan foot.
Of course, another way to vote down democracy in the U.S. is to bring about a Constitutional Constitution and then advocate and manipulate attitudes through media propaganda to favor throwing out the existing Constitution and replacing it with a new governing document that will more efficiently support the policies of the controlling elite.
Democracy is certainly fraught with difficulties, but as I have shown in my blog post below and in subsequent followups that constitute a multi-part essay, egalitarian social structure seems to have very deep roots in evolutionary processes explicated by anthropologists, historians, political scientests, evolutionary biologists and psychologists, and geneticists.
http://synocracy.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/evolution-of-democracy-part-i/
You may also be interested in current thinking that is focused on going “Beyond Democracy” to the next stage of governance as represented by another post:
http://synocracy.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/what-is-synocracy/
Tuesday ~ December 8th, 2009 at 10:15 am
SariaFularall
Интересно сколько через месяц человек вы отоварите?
Thursday ~ April 15th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Adrian Wainer
Alan D Price is a genuinely frightening person. I would suggest the best thing is to have nothing to do with him.
Friday ~ April 16th, 2010 at 12:55 am
Alan D. Price, PhD
“Adrian Wainer” is the fake persona of a disturbed individual who is stalking me all over the Internet in a campaign of character assassination. This is his vendetta after being banned from Facebook multitudinous times for totally inappropriate and often vile postings attacking me and others, including the former candidate for Texas Governor, Debra Medina. My credentials are verifiable by anyone. Not even his real identity is verifiable.
Friday ~ April 16th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Adrian Wainer
Alan D Price
” Senior Clinical Psychologist, Department of Health, State of Hawaii. Former psychology faculty and professor at a number of universities, including Wesleyan University in Connecticut, California State University, Long Beach, California State University, Bakersfield, and Head, Psychology Program, Chaminade University of Honolulu.
Ph.D., Psychology, City University of New York; M.A. and B.A., Psychology, University of California, Los Angeles. ”
has written
“Adrian Wainer” is the fake persona of a disturbed individual who is stalking me all over the Internet in a campaign of character assassination. This is his vendetta after being banned from Facebook multitudinous times for totally inappropriate and often vile postings attacking me and others, including the former candidate for Texas Governor, Debra Medina. My credentials are verifiable by anyone. Not even his real identity is verifiable.
With reference to, ” character assassination “, Alan that would presume that you would have a good character which could be assassinated, when the reality is you are a vile and disgusting individual, who exhibits many of the characteristics of a psychopath. In fact there is a reasonable argument to be made, that it is unfair to psychopaths to suggest too close a relationship between you and and the psychopathic individual, since psychopaths are driven in their behavior, whilst you seem to engage in your activities as a matter of free choice. Alan, from the way you go on about Facebook, one might get the impression that it is some sort of supreme moral authority, well sorry Alan it is not, Facebook is just a commercial company and if you manage to cause the deaths of several people, as a result of your varied bizarre activities, I suggest you try pointing out to a District Attorney that there is nothing to be concerned about, if Facebook’s Terms of Service have been complied with.
Saturday ~ April 17th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
Adrian Wainer
Alan D Price wrote
“Can there now be any doubt that in encountering “Adrian Wainer” and all of his multitudinous fake identities that have appeared on this page (which includes “Alandprice Isashonet”) that we have been dealing with a deranged individual who is delusionally obsessed with imposing his will and views on the people here to support Debra Medina.
For those who miss the meaning of his neologism, the term, “shonet” is his calling card and is his way of saying “sh1t” (sometimes, “sh-one-t,”), which in some twisted way appears to be his way of avoiding censure for inappropriate language in attacking others.
It is important that everyone again report this COWARD, from whose domination, we had respite for 2-3 days. I suggest that we flood Facebook with reports, which hopefully will motivate them to do something about him permanently. He is obsessed with accusing others of Nazism and yet has no clue that he indicts himself as a paranoid, control freak in everything that he posts. ”
Debra Medina
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Debra-Medina/95669721909?v=wall&ref=mf
Saturday ~ April 17th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Adrian Wainer
Alan D Price writes
” This disturbed foreigner/agitator/provocateur from Ireland has been tracking my movements on the Internet and spewing his venom and character assassination wherever he can find a place to do so, regardless of the fact that he is intrusive and domineering, as he is on this page. He has called the my employer the Department of Health of the State of Hawaii and has claimed that I was destroying the character of persons on Facebook and encouraging them to commit suicide, which is a theme that he repeats in an illustrative post on a third party blog copied below:
http://modeledbehavior.com/2009/11/12/can-you-vote-down-democracy/
““““““““““`
Alan D Price
” Senior Clinical Psychologist, Department of Health, State of Hawaii. Former psychology faculty and professor at a number of universities, including Wesleyan University in Connecticut, California State University, Long Beach, California State University, Bakersfield, and Head, Psychology Program, Chaminade University of Honolulu.
Ph.D., Psychology, City University of New York; M.A. and B.A., Psychology, University of California, Los Angeles. ”
has written
“Adrian Wainer” is the fake persona of a disturbed individual who is stalking me all over the Internet in a campaign of character assassination. This is his vendetta after being banned from Facebook multitudinous times for totally inappropriate and often vile postings attacking me and others, including the former candidate for Texas Governor, Debra Medina. My credentials are verifiable by anyone. Not even his real identity is verifiable.”
With reference to, ” character assassination “, Alan that would presume that you would have a good character which could be assassinated, when the reality is you are a vile and disgusting individual, who exhibits many of the characteristics of a psychopath. In fact there is a reasonable argument to be made, that it is unfair to psychopaths to suggest too close a relationship between you and and the psychopathic individual, since psychopaths are driven in their behavior, whilst you seem to engage in your activities as a matter of free choice. Alan, from the way you go on about Facebook, one might get the impression that it is some sort of supreme moral authority, well sorry Alan it is not, Facebook is just a commercial company and if you manage to cause the deaths of several people, as a result of your varied bizarre activities, I suggest you try pointing out to a District Attorney that there is nothing to be concerned about, if Facebook’s Terms of Service have been complied with.
“““““`
Again, I suggest that blocking him is not effective. What works at least temporarily is to report him en masse every time he makes an attack on this page. ”
Debra Medina
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Debra-Medina/95669721909?v=wall&ref=mf
Saturday ~ April 17th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
Adrian Wainer
Alan D Price writes
” This disturbed foreigner/agitator/provocateur from Ireland has been tracking my movements on the Internet and spewing his venom and character assassination wherever he can find a place to do so, regardless of the fact that he is intrusive and domineering, as he is on this page. He has called the my employer the Department of Health of the State of Hawaii and has claimed that I was destroying the character of persons on Facebook and encouraging them to commit suicide, which is a theme that he repeats in an illustrative post on a third party blog copied below:
http://modeledbehavior.com/2009/11/12/can-you-vote-down-democracy/
““““““““““`
Alan D Price
” Senior Clinical Psychologist, Department of Health, State of Hawaii. Former psychology faculty and professor at a number of universities, including Wesleyan University in Connecticut, California State University, Long Beach, California State University, Bakersfield, and Head, Psychology Program, Chaminade University of Honolulu.
Ph.D., Psychology, City University of New York; M.A. and B.A., Psychology, University of California, Los Angeles. ”
has written
“Adrian Wainer” is the fake persona of a disturbed individual who is stalking me all over the Internet in a campaign of character assassination. This is his vendetta after being banned from Facebook multitudinous times for totally inappropriate and often vile postings attacking me and others, including the former candidate for Texas Governor, Debra Medina. My credentials are verifiable by anyone. Not even his real identity is verifiable.”
With reference to, ” character assassination “, Alan that would presume that you would have a good character which could be assassinated, when the reality is you are a vile and disgusting individual, who exhibits many of the characteristics of a psychopath. In fact there is a reasonable argument to be made, that it is unfair to psychopaths to suggest too close a relationship between you and and the psychopathic individual, since psychopaths are driven in their behavior, whilst you seem to engage in your activities as a matter of free choice. Alan, from the way you go on about Facebook, one might get the impression that it is some sort of supreme moral authority, well sorry Alan it is not, Facebook is just a commercial company and if you manage to cause the deaths of several people, as a result of your varied bizarre activities, I suggest you try pointing out to a District Attorney that there is nothing to be concerned about, if Facebook’s Terms of Service have been complied with.
“““““`
Again, I suggest that blocking him is not effective. What works at least temporarily is to report him en masse every time he makes an attack on this page. ”
Debra Medina
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Debra-Medina/95669721909?v=wall&ref=mf
Friday ~ April 23rd, 2010 at 8:39 pm
Sandra Burkhart
adraine you really need to get a life.. you spend way to much time looking like the moron you must be. ignore this low life. he’s probably a government shill… gotta be getting paid to do the things he does. i mean how can any sane person post 74 video’s on someone’s facebook page. all about a topic of no concern to a page dediciated to texas politics. shakes head…
Tuesday ~ April 27th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Adrian Wainer
Sandra Burkhart wrote
” adraine you really need to get a life.. you spend way to much time looking like the moron you must be. ignore this low life. he’s probably a government shill… gotta be getting paid to do the things he does. i mean how can any sane person post 74 video’s on someone’s facebook page. all about a topic of no concern to a page dediciated to texas politics. shakes head… ”
Old Lady Who Swallowed a Fly (song): Storytime with Jason